Fake Britian - BBC One today. Car parts
Discussion
A fellow PH'r has just posted this. I wonder .........
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
750turbo said:
Face for Radio said:
Manufacturers make plenty of money from the sale of cars. It's the dealers that don't have much margin in it.
Really?So what happened to Saab, Ford, GM, Pug, Renault... recently? The all struggled/died sadly (And still are)
I think that their outlook will be on the whole life profit, and the need to retain a % of parts sales/labour...
A few years ago I met a man that worked for Land Rover as a mechanical engineer in the warranty department, part of his job was investigating warranty claims for validity, causes of common faults and proposal for revised parts, claims against suppliers for faults etc.
The difference between cost of build and sale price was ~60%, which was their warranty contingency. Any warranty claims were effectively deducted from that cost, and anything not claimed for was profit.
Cars do not cost anywhere near their retail price to produce.
405dogvan said:
Anyone buying safety parts from eBay is a total idiot - problem is they could be the car coming towards you VERY FAST, sadly.
Parts bought from a UK parts supplier should be completely safe - the quality may not appear to be there but they should have been safety tested and should be 'fit for the purpose'.
There's a massive diff between eBay sourced airbags/alloys and the same thing from a UK-basedpattern maker/supplier - let's not get to excited here.
The "goto your dealer and they'll be sure to use original parts" is missing the words "often at a ridiculously inflated price".
If you see someone selling an airbag kit from a car which has been written off in a rear end impact, how is that a problem?Parts bought from a UK parts supplier should be completely safe - the quality may not appear to be there but they should have been safety tested and should be 'fit for the purpose'.
There's a massive diff between eBay sourced airbags/alloys and the same thing from a UK-basedpattern maker/supplier - let's not get to excited here.
The "goto your dealer and they'll be sure to use original parts" is missing the words "often at a ridiculously inflated price".
Buying an airbag kit from a car which was written off in a front end impact and the airbags didnt deploy, now that would be more questionable.
Face for Radio said:
Car companies in those situations tend to rack up large debts, and then don't sell enough cars to cover the bills.
A few years ago I met a man that worked for Land Rover as a mechanical engineer in the warranty department, part of his job was investigating warranty claims for validity, causes of common faults and proposal for revised parts, claims against suppliers for faults etc.
The difference between cost of build and sale price was ~60%, which was their warranty contingency. Any warranty claims were effectively deducted from that cost, and anything not claimed for was profit.
Cars do not cost anywhere near their retail price to produce.
Let us agree to disagree, shall we.A few years ago I met a man that worked for Land Rover as a mechanical engineer in the warranty department, part of his job was investigating warranty claims for validity, causes of common faults and proposal for revised parts, claims against suppliers for faults etc.
The difference between cost of build and sale price was ~60%, which was their warranty contingency. Any warranty claims were effectively deducted from that cost, and anything not claimed for was profit.
Cars do not cost anywhere near their retail price to produce.
I am afraid that you are way out on the Warranty Contingency.
Face for Radio said:
The difference between cost of build and sale price was ~60%, which was their warranty contingency. Any warranty claims were effectively deducted from that cost, and anything not claimed for was profit.
You're right in that the bill of materials is usually well short of the price of the vehicle, but it's not all 'warranty contingency'. Usually the development cost is factored into the predicted lifetime and sales of the vehicle and there's a notional cost per vehicle assigned to it. Warranty claims will have an estimated/assumed percentage cost per vehicle too but I doubt it's anywhere near the development costs. Often manufacturers will also have insurance instead of bearing the total cost themselves or split it such as 2 years self underwritten with the third being covered by an external insurer.
A few other items aside, there will more than likely be a slim profit left over for the manufacturer at the end of it. If the car doesn't sell as well or doesn't last as long as expected that margin will disappear, if it outsells or lasts longer then each unit will effectively have that huge profit margin.
Good example would be the outgoing Range Rover Vogue, that was still selling well a couple of years after it was expected to be replaced. That would have given Land Rover a whopping profit while it lasted.
I find buying parts such as brake discs/pads stressful enough anyway. I'd never go to BMW for them and have used the big UK suppliers that have physical stores.
I've recently been told by a BMW indy to avoid buying discs from one of them (rhymes with Euro Tar Farts) as they started having problems and lots of discs had to be sent back after customer complaints of 'wobbly brakes'.
I found with said supplier that even if you specify which brand you want (usually there is choice) you end up with something else anyway. e.g. choose ATE pads on the website, recieve a box branded JURID, but with a label somewhere on it that shows ATE. Similarly, go to the counter to buy discs. They tell you that the parts I need are PAGID, but when they bring the box out, they're ATE. Confusing as hell.
I've recently been told by a BMW indy to avoid buying discs from one of them (rhymes with Euro Tar Farts) as they started having problems and lots of discs had to be sent back after customer complaints of 'wobbly brakes'.
I found with said supplier that even if you specify which brand you want (usually there is choice) you end up with something else anyway. e.g. choose ATE pads on the website, recieve a box branded JURID, but with a label somewhere on it that shows ATE. Similarly, go to the counter to buy discs. They tell you that the parts I need are PAGID, but when they bring the box out, they're ATE. Confusing as hell.
Edited by jones325i on Wednesday 8th May 14:19
jones325i said:
I found with said supplier that even if you specify which brand you want (usually there is choice) you end up with something else anyway. e.g. choose ATE pads on the website, recieve a box branded JURID, but with a label somewhere on it that shows ATE. Similarly, go to the counter to buy discs. They tell you that the parts I need are PAGID, but when they bring the box out, they're ATE. Confusing as hell.
Pagid is a TMD brand. TMD also own Mintex and Textar.Jurid is now (strangely) owned by Honeywell, who also have the Bendix brakes brand.
ATe is part of Continental.
There's been a lot of contraction of production with big brands being bought up into the same stables, so it is not strange that ECP are supplying one brand when advertising another as there is a fair chance that is what their supplier is doing.
James B said:
I can speak from experience on the fake alloys issue.
We bought a used Audi A5 in Jan of this year that was running OEM 20" RS4 Style wheels. All original paperwork checked out and showed that was the option ticked at delivery.
Driving home in the car (London to Aberdeen) we felt something out of balance but put it down to a wheel out of balance.
Around Carlisle one of the tyre pressure monitors triggered so we pulled into a service station to refill. It was down a few PSI so I became wary.
We got to Lawrencekirk which is 30 miles from Aberdeen and about 500 miles into the journey when we had a rapid deflation of the same tyre at motorway speeds. Thankfully I was driving and not my fiance.
On removing the wheel it was clear why it deflated. It had a 4" long and 1mm wide crack in it running from inner rim towards the hub. The AA guy said he had never seen anything like it. We got the car home and removed all four wheels.
3 had evidence of cracks and one was flat spotted. I also noticed that while the wheels had all the usual OEM style marks they also had one more telling stamp. P.R.C. (Peoples Republic of China i presume)
Chinese fakes.
The dealer that sold the car was horrified and was actually very decent indeed expecially given that we were now 550 miles north of him! A brand new set of genuine and round replacement Audi wheels were sourced and he took back the old ones to discuss with the trader that had passed the car to him.
James B:We bought a used Audi A5 in Jan of this year that was running OEM 20" RS4 Style wheels. All original paperwork checked out and showed that was the option ticked at delivery.
Driving home in the car (London to Aberdeen) we felt something out of balance but put it down to a wheel out of balance.
Around Carlisle one of the tyre pressure monitors triggered so we pulled into a service station to refill. It was down a few PSI so I became wary.
We got to Lawrencekirk which is 30 miles from Aberdeen and about 500 miles into the journey when we had a rapid deflation of the same tyre at motorway speeds. Thankfully I was driving and not my fiance.
On removing the wheel it was clear why it deflated. It had a 4" long and 1mm wide crack in it running from inner rim towards the hub. The AA guy said he had never seen anything like it. We got the car home and removed all four wheels.
3 had evidence of cracks and one was flat spotted. I also noticed that while the wheels had all the usual OEM style marks they also had one more telling stamp. P.R.C. (Peoples Republic of China i presume)
Chinese fakes.
The dealer that sold the car was horrified and was actually very decent indeed expecially given that we were now 550 miles north of him! A brand new set of genuine and round replacement Audi wheels were sourced and he took back the old ones to discuss with the trader that had passed the car to him.
Edited by James B on Tuesday 7th May 13:32
On a forum where we're all prone to moan about car dealers (and I include myself in that), it would be nice to name that dealer for an example of proper customer service and thus giving them the credit they deserve for putting it right without fuss.
mat777 said:
Wasnt there a scandal once involving a BMW franchise'd chain knowingly selling fake BMW alloys at real BMW prices?
the local BMW main dealer in my town got done for this about fifteen years ago.it caused a huge stink at the time.
http://www.motortrader.com/general-news/angry-bmw-...
Edited by guru_1071 on Wednesday 8th May 15:12
750turbo said:
Let us agree to disagree, shall we.
I am afraid that you are way out on the Warranty Contingency.
Fair enough.I am afraid that you are way out on the Warranty Contingency.
That's what Land Rover North America had when I last spoke to Alastair. Have absolutely no reason to disbelieve him.
The Wookie said:
You're right in that the bill of materials is usually well short of the price of the vehicle, but it's not all 'warranty contingency'. Usually the development cost is factored into the predicted lifetime and sales of the vehicle and there's a notional cost per vehicle assigned to it.
Warranty claims will have an estimated/assumed percentage cost per vehicle too but I doubt it's anywhere near the development costs. Often manufacturers will also have insurance instead of bearing the total cost themselves or split it such as 2 years self underwritten with the third being covered by an external insurer.
A few other items aside, there will more than likely be a slim profit left over for the manufacturer at the end of it. If the car doesn't sell as well or doesn't last as long as expected that margin will disappear, if it outsells or lasts longer then each unit will effectively have that huge profit margin.
Good example would be the outgoing Range Rover Vogue, that was still selling well a couple of years after it was expected to be replaced. That would have given Land Rover a whopping profit while it lasted.
Yes, by 'profit' I mean money that can be put into paying the overheads, development costs, new office building etc. I doubt any car would actually require 60% of value of warranty work on a vehicle, but the premise was that as long as it was inside that percentage figure for warranty work, the physical cost of the car to the company vs. the sale price was in the black.Warranty claims will have an estimated/assumed percentage cost per vehicle too but I doubt it's anywhere near the development costs. Often manufacturers will also have insurance instead of bearing the total cost themselves or split it such as 2 years self underwritten with the third being covered by an external insurer.
A few other items aside, there will more than likely be a slim profit left over for the manufacturer at the end of it. If the car doesn't sell as well or doesn't last as long as expected that margin will disappear, if it outsells or lasts longer then each unit will effectively have that huge profit margin.
Good example would be the outgoing Range Rover Vogue, that was still selling well a couple of years after it was expected to be replaced. That would have given Land Rover a whopping profit while it lasted.
Some people seem to think the actual cost of building a car is very close to that of the sale price, but it is quite far from it.
jones325i said:
I find buying parts such as brake discs/pads stressful enough anyway. I'd never go to BMW for them
Definitely give them a whirl - i go to Douglas Park BMW, either Kyle Street or Hamilton branches and they both price match (or at least attempt to get within £10 of) Euro Car Parts or German Swedish French.As an example, they were within £7-ish of the OEM brembo discs from GSF. For pads they were *cheaper* than ECP, £55 BMW vs £62 ECP (GSF didn't offer OEM Textar pads so couldn't compare).
Supposedly the Brembo discs get an extra spin balance before they go in a BMW box - although, there were no obvious machining cuts / marks on any of the 4 discs edges so i'm not actually sure how true this is, but i'd happily go along with the idea there's some extra quality control involved with the BMW box vs the OEM box.
Either way, there's a 2 year parts warranty buying from BMW where it's 1 year anywhere else, and come resale time it (hopefully!) reflects nicely on the car having genuine parts fitted (even though they are often the same price as quality aftermarket).
750turbo said:
An Italian court you'll notice, defending an Italian distributor getting to punt a Chinese knock-off of a German product.This being the same Italy where driving a Ferrari replica will see them try and sieze and crush it.
emicen said:
750turbo said:
An Italian court you'll notice, defending an Italian distributor getting to punt a Chinese knock-off of a German product.This being the same Italy where driving a Ferrari replica will see them try and sieze and crush it.
Being associated with countries like Italy (and they are far from the worst) is an embarrassment.
Ozzie Osmond said:
V8RX7 said:
Definitely possible - many "fake" goods are just sold out the back door of the OEM factory.
I've spent many years in the motor trade and I've never heard that one before. Any evidence to back up your statement?The aftermarket part is identical, apart from the OE part no and manufacturer being machined off the part, and the part coming in plain white packaging.
I wonder where the aftermarket part came from?
ShaunTheSheep said:
jones325i said:
I find buying parts such as brake discs/pads stressful enough anyway. I'd never go to BMW for them
Definitely give them a whirl - i go to Douglas Park BMW, either Kyle Street or Hamilton branches and they both price match (or at least attempt to get within £10 of) Euro Car Parts or German Swedish French.As an example, they were within £7-ish of the OEM brembo discs from GSF. For pads they were *cheaper* than ECP, £55 BMW vs £62 ECP (GSF didn't offer OEM Textar pads so couldn't compare).
Supposedly the Brembo discs get an extra spin balance before they go in a BMW box - although, there were no obvious machining cuts / marks on any of the 4 discs edges so i'm not actually sure how true this is, but i'd happily go along with the idea there's some extra quality control involved with the BMW box vs the OEM box.
Either way, there's a 2 year parts warranty buying from BMW where it's 1 year anywhere else, and come resale time it (hopefully!) reflects nicely on the car having genuine parts fitted (even though they are often the same price as quality aftermarket).
ShaunTheSheep said:
Supposedly the Brembo discs get an extra spin balance before they go in a BMW box - although, there were no obvious machining cuts / marks on any of the 4 discs edges so i'm not actually sure how true this is, but i'd happily go along with the idea there's some extra quality control involved with the BMW box vs the OEM box.
I doubt that is true. OEm means "original equipment manufacture", which means either the exact parts the manufacturer buys in and brands, or ones made with the exact same process and materials as the genuine parts. As such, either they all get this extra spin treatment or none of them get itGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff