RE: Fast vs fun - grip or slip
Discussion
littleredrooster said:
Some of the most fun I've had on four wheels was in a Vauxhall Viva HC 1.2 with about 38bhp and 145x13 cross-ply tyres in the early '70s.
The trick was never to lift off until the crash was inevitable, and then it was only a brief lift to get the thing pointing back in approximately the right direction. It may also have sufficed to drop the revs enough to stop the valves from bouncing.
No grip, no power, just immense fun! How the f
k didn't I kill any kittens?
Yep my fondest memories are of a friend who could hold his (completely standard) Mk2 Escort 1.3 sideways even on a straight road - he now drives an XC90 by choice which I find depressingThe trick was never to lift off until the crash was inevitable, and then it was only a brief lift to get the thing pointing back in approximately the right direction. It may also have sufficed to drop the revs enough to stop the valves from bouncing.
No grip, no power, just immense fun! How the f
k didn't I kill any kittens?Many, many years ago, David Yu and I were thrown the keys to a bog stock R32 Skyline by the chap (who's name I forget...David?) who ran Rare Imports, who were bringing R32 GTR's in for the first time.
The car was wearing skinny Avon Turbospeed tyres and we were told to "wait 'til the oil's warmed up" before throwing it around the Berkshire country lanes. It was hilarious! The car was so lively, you could feel every little bit of wiggle as it slid around the road (and off it) and all we had to do to keep it on the black stuff was keep the accelerator pressed. Better still, you could really feel the rear-wheel steer doing it's stuff at the back.
We both went on to buy other, more powerful, GT-R's (David's made a career out of it), but, for me, that ride in that car with those tyres was more fun than any of the bigger horsepower, bigger tyred cars I later owned.
The car was wearing skinny Avon Turbospeed tyres and we were told to "wait 'til the oil's warmed up" before throwing it around the Berkshire country lanes. It was hilarious! The car was so lively, you could feel every little bit of wiggle as it slid around the road (and off it) and all we had to do to keep it on the black stuff was keep the accelerator pressed. Better still, you could really feel the rear-wheel steer doing it's stuff at the back.
We both went on to buy other, more powerful, GT-R's (David's made a career out of it), but, for me, that ride in that car with those tyres was more fun than any of the bigger horsepower, bigger tyred cars I later owned.
Firstly, can I just say I'm firmly in the 'slip' rather than 'grip' camp, and hence find most modern front drivers boring beyond belief.
It is for this reason I've just bought a 1993 Volvo 940 Turbo, with 185 section tyres all round. Easily the most sideways fun I've ever had, all for under £500.
It is for this reason I've just bought a 1993 Volvo 940 Turbo, with 185 section tyres all round. Easily the most sideways fun I've ever had, all for under £500.
This slip/grip and fun related argument all seems a bit superficial.
For this Megane test, even the higher grip track orientated will transition from grip to slip, you are just pulling a bit more g when it occurs.
Both tyres have the fun quotient, you are just at a different performance level on the track tyre before you access it.
Also, realistically on many track day circuits a high proportion of track day drivers never get into too much slip as the transition to no grip is never that far away, just like the lack of run off and barriers.
For this Megane test, even the higher grip track orientated will transition from grip to slip, you are just pulling a bit more g when it occurs.
Both tyres have the fun quotient, you are just at a different performance level on the track tyre before you access it.
Also, realistically on many track day circuits a high proportion of track day drivers never get into too much slip as the transition to no grip is never that far away, just like the lack of run off and barriers.
mat777 said:
I can guarantee that something like a 106gti or Aygo on skinny little high profile 155 tyres will be far more fun, far more progressive, far easier to reach or exceed the limits of at sensible/legal speeds, far quieter in terms of tyre noise, more economical, and far far more comfy, than any daft Clio/Swift/Corsa running on 225-ish elastic bands
Certainly. My 106 Rallye runs 175/65 on 14" and the whole car is about slip and grip. And the main thing is I have all this fun at legal speed limits.
Regarding the PS2.... I've tracked my Megane on PS2's many times and even on some nasty airfield surfaces I didn't notice them go off particularly quickly. Even after a 15-20 minute session the grip seemed consistent and predictable - I'm surprised they went "off" so quickly in your test.
framerateuk said:
Regarding the PS2.... I've tracked my Megane on PS2's many times and even on some nasty airfield surfaces I didn't notice them go off particularly quickly. Even after a 15-20 minute session the grip seemed consistent and predictable - I'm surprised they went "off" so quickly in your test.
It was the Dunlops that 'went off' although that is always a fairly subjective assessment and that has raised a few comments. I recently (last weekend) dropped the 16s with average road rubber from my road legal track toy in favour of running the A048 shod 15s full time. Overall driveability may be less and the ride is certainly less forgiving imo but the fun I have cornering at whatever speed I feel like as the tail wags a little is more than worth it.
If track tyres are going off after two laps then obviously they aren't fit for purpose. I would expect a track tyre to stand up to the abuse better.
Certainly in my experience, Neova AD08 don't really go off at all within a 20 mins stint, and wear rate under this type of heavy load is (much) better than normal road tyres which overheat and die.
Certainly in my experience, Neova AD08 don't really go off at all within a 20 mins stint, and wear rate under this type of heavy load is (much) better than normal road tyres which overheat and die.
littleredrooster said:
Some of the most fun I've had on four wheels was in a Vauxhall Viva HC 1.2 with about 38bhp and 145x13 cross-ply tyres in the early '70s.
The trick was never to lift off until the crash was inevitable, and then it was only a brief lift to get the thing pointing back in approximately the right direction. It may also have sufficed to drop the revs enough to stop the valves from bouncing.
On a regular 5 mile trip back from a friend's place, I could drive it so that the thing was right on the edge of adhesion for all but about 400 yards of straight dual-carriageway. Never exceeded 62mph, never dropped below 58mph! Washing the passenger's side window regularly was a must in order to see where we were going...
No grip, no power, just immense fun! How the fk didn't I kill any kittens?
+1 on an HC 1256 providing epic fun as a first car.The trick was never to lift off until the crash was inevitable, and then it was only a brief lift to get the thing pointing back in approximately the right direction. It may also have sufficed to drop the revs enough to stop the valves from bouncing.
On a regular 5 mile trip back from a friend's place, I could drive it so that the thing was right on the edge of adhesion for all but about 400 yards of straight dual-carriageway. Never exceeded 62mph, never dropped below 58mph! Washing the passenger's side window regularly was a must in order to see where we were going...
No grip, no power, just immense fun! How the f
k didn't I kill any kittens?Although my luck did run out once, on slippery leaves and very low grip tyres.
Still car dragged out by AA using the bumpers as a tow hook, started back up and on I went, humbled and slower for hmm all of 100 yards.
The days of fireproof youth, where are you now.
Roono said:
mat777 said:
I can guarantee that something like a 106gti or Aygo on skinny little high profile 155 tyres will be far more fun, far more progressive, far easier to reach or exceed the limits of at sensible/legal speeds, far quieter in terms of tyre noise, more economical, and far far more comfy, than any daft Clio/Swift/Corsa running on 225-ish elastic bands
Certainly. My 106 Rallye runs 175/65 on 14" and the whole car is about slip and grip. And the main thing is I have all this fun at legal speed limits.
I remember people claiming 205s on modern rubber feel quite different to how they behaved (or didn't
) with the boots they left the factory with. I guess a lot has changed in 30 years of tyre dev
collateral said:
Roono said:
mat777 said:
I can guarantee that something like a 106gti or Aygo on skinny little high profile 155 tyres will be far more fun, far more progressive, far easier to reach or exceed the limits of at sensible/legal speeds, far quieter in terms of tyre noise, more economical, and far far more comfy, than any daft Clio/Swift/Corsa running on 225-ish elastic bands
Certainly. My 106 Rallye runs 175/65 on 14" and the whole car is about slip and grip. And the main thing is I have all this fun at legal speed limits.
I remember people claiming 205s on modern rubber feel quite different to how they behaved (or didn't
) with the boots they left the factory with. I guess a lot has changed in 30 years of tyre dev205 40 16 is no better but not noticeably worse but move to 17s and the handling / ride is ruined.
Sticking a set of 888s on means you can carry a LOT more speed in the bends which can be fun in itself (on track) and you start to upset some of the faster cars (on road rubber)
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