RE: Fast vs fun - grip or slip

[collateral]

V8RX7 said:

collateral said:

Roono said:

mat777 said:

I can guarantee that something like a 106gti or Aygo on skinny little high profile 155 tyres will be far more fun, far more progressive, far easier to reach or exceed the limits of at sensible/legal speeds, far quieter in terms of tyre noise, more economical, and far far more comfy, than any daft Clio/Swift/Corsa running on 225-ish elastic bands

Certainly. My 106 Rallye runs 175/65 on 14" and the whole car is about slip and grip.
And the main thing is I have all this fun at legal speed limits.

A retest using a bigger variation of wheel size would be interesting.

I remember people claiming 205s on modern rubber feel quite different to how they behaved (or didn't ) with the boots they left the factory with. I guess a lot has changed in 30 years of tyre dev

Not quite the same extreme but Mk1 MX5s are sweetest on 185 60 14 however there is a noticeable improvement in grip and confidence on 195 50 15 plus they are cheaper to buy and there is a much wider choice.

205 40 16 is no better but not noticeably worse but move to 17s and the handling / ride is ruined.

Sticking a set of 888s on means you can carry a LOT more speed in the bends which can be fun in itself (on track) and you start to upset some of the faster cars (on road rubber)

Interesting. My Puma has the optional 1" bigger wheels that all the later ones seem to have and I've always wondered if there's much of an improvement in ride with the smaller ones.

Just to clarify; I meant Pug 205s in my original post, not the tyre width!

[V8RX7]

collateral said:

Just to clarify; I meant Pug 205s in my original post, not the tyre width!

I know but I haven't tested that out.

[Marvin Trill]

On my everyday hatch-back I fit the cheapest rubber possibly so I can have fun at lower speed and all the time in the wet. On my faster/track day hot hatch I have 2 lots of tyres ones for the road & one for the track. I found that the Road tyres are so much more fun, you can feel the car letting go through the wheel, BUT i agree there is something fun about a 140 bhp hot hatch chasing much more exotic machinery round track.

[n4aat]

Umm. No surprise there.

But you seemed to get bored halfway through. Surely you were meant to be also assessing the tyres capability to and from the track.

[Chapppers]

Where's the time from the track tyre run then? 3m 5s on standard tyres. It's good that you managed to objectively measure only one half of the comparison.

[Shurv]

This is very interesting.I've got a 996 C4S as a weekend toy,but also get a company car.The GT86 has just appeared on my car list ( makes a change from the diesel estate) and I'm 2 months away from changing cars.I'm going to order a GT86 as my daily hack and so will be able to a direct back to back comparison.Watch this space.

[Danny Milner]

Chapppers said:

Where's the time from the track tyre run then? 3m 5s on standard tyres. It's good that you managed to objectively measure only one half of the comparison.

"the extra grip was showing up in the lap times too; over a second quicker from the word go."

High 3:05s down to low 3:04s, if the above didn't explain it well enough. :-)

[MC Bodge]

Danny Milner said:

"the extra grip was showing up in the lap times too; over a second quicker from the word go."

High 3:05s down to low 3:04s, if the above didn't explain it well enough. :-)

0.5-1% difference in lap times between a set of well-used tyres and set of brand new ones in a different brand and size with a driver who is improving their knowledge of a circuit?

How scientific and repeatable was the test?

[Danny Milner]

MC Bodge said:

0.5-1% difference in lap times between a set of well-used tyres and set of brand new ones in a different brand and size with a driver who is improving their knowledge of a circuit?

How scientific and repeatable was the test?

As you rightly point out, there were always going to be too many variables to make this a scientific comparison. That's why the question I was exploring was fast vs fun. A debate which is, by its very nature, subjective. And, ultimately, track days are neither test days nor qualifying sessions anyway.

Yes, you are right that the time difference is not dramatic, but the car certainly felt very different. Had the tyres held on longer I'm sure that lap time would have come down further.

As for learning the circuit, I've probably been around spa 200 times, and while I'm not trying to say I'm in any way an expert on it, I don't think any improvement in lap times would be down to better track knowledge.

[jon-]

MC Bodge said:

Danny Milner said:

"the extra grip was showing up in the lap times too; over a second quicker from the word go."

High 3:05s down to low 3:04s, if the above didn't explain it well enough. :-)

0.5-1% difference in lap times between a set of well-used tyres and set of brand new ones in a different brand and size with a driver who is improving their knowledge of a circuit?

How scientific and repeatable was the test?

When I did this (link somewhere above) it was in a car I knew very well, and a track I knew very well.



Total time saved, 2.1 seconds (though I felt there was maybe another 0.5 seconds in the track tyre) around Donington National (so a 1.23 lap).

That time saving mirrors the improvement I've seen from other tests, which means the Megane should have been around 5 seconds faster at Spa.

[CedricN]

I always run Rcomp on track, they are just so much sharper and easier to control than street tyres which just gets hot and sloppy and inconsistent. But a slower autocross course or B-road makes it much different, then street tyres can be a more fun choice depending on car.

[PearlWhiteGT86]

Shurv said:

This is very interesting.I've got a 996 C4S as a weekend toy,but also get a company car.The GT86 has just appeared on my car list ( makes a change from the diesel estate) and I'm 2 months away from changing cars.I'm going to order a GT86 as my daily hack and so will be able to a direct back to back comparison.Watch this space.

You will not regret getting the GT86 it makes me smile every time I get in it

[anonymous-user]

grip is fun on a track. not always relevant on bumpy B roads where the issue is keeping in contact with the road in the first place ... progress on B roads is perhaps more about suspension quality and adjustability - over-tyred cars that would roast you on a track are handicapped on bad (i.e., fun) roads - you see them slowly juddering and tramlining along, usually driven by some fashion victim who has spent a month's wages on big dopey wheels and "coat of paint" tyres, without usually knowing why. for real fun, tall skinny tyres after a nice shower of rain is the real deal as even standard road tyres can nowadays be too grippy to be much fun. also depends on your driving style - i feel safer when a car is sliding about all over the place.

[sc4589]

V8RX7 said:

On a track 90% would opt for fast

On a FWD 90% would opt for fast
(not much fun losing grip in a FWD)

On a RWD, on the road which is where I spend 99.9% of my time, I'd opt for fun.

Yes, but there's fun and too much fun... in one of my premature senile moments, I thought it'd be a great idea to fit some Infinities to my BMW. Won't be making that mistake again- in 5th, at 50mph (not exactly high up the rev range or making progress), the tyres would just lose grip if you accelerated...

It's all about balance. I like mid-range tyres for this very reason. They're cheaper, and you can have more fun at lower speeds... therefore keeping your license slightly more intact.

[MC Bodge]

tommy1973s said:

grip is fun on a track. not always relevant on bumpy B roads where the issue is keeping in contact with the road in the first place ... progress on B roads is perhaps more about suspension quality and adjustability - over-tyred cars that would roast you on a track are handicapped on bad (i.e., fun) roads -

Yes.

You don't want a car with poor grip that can't stay in a straight line, though.