RE: Fast vs fun - grip or slip
Discussion
V8RX7 said:
collateral said:
Roono said:
mat777 said:
I can guarantee that something like a 106gti or Aygo on skinny little high profile 155 tyres will be far more fun, far more progressive, far easier to reach or exceed the limits of at sensible/legal speeds, far quieter in terms of tyre noise, more economical, and far far more comfy, than any daft Clio/Swift/Corsa running on 225-ish elastic bands
Certainly. My 106 Rallye runs 175/65 on 14" and the whole car is about slip and grip. And the main thing is I have all this fun at legal speed limits.
I remember people claiming 205s on modern rubber feel quite different to how they behaved (or didn't ) with the boots they left the factory with. I guess a lot has changed in 30 years of tyre dev
205 40 16 is no better but not noticeably worse but move to 17s and the handling / ride is ruined.
Sticking a set of 888s on means you can carry a LOT more speed in the bends which can be fun in itself (on track) and you start to upset some of the faster cars (on road rubber)
Just to clarify; I meant Pug 205s in my original post, not the tyre width!
On my everyday hatch-back I fit the cheapest rubber possibly so I can have fun at lower speed and all the time in the wet. On my faster/track day hot hatch I have 2 lots of tyres ones for the road & one for the track. I found that the Road tyres are so much more fun, you can feel the car letting go through the wheel, BUT i agree there is something fun about a 140 bhp hot hatch chasing much more exotic machinery round track.
This is very interesting.I've got a 996 C4S as a weekend toy,but also get a company car.The GT86 has just appeared on my car list ( makes a change from the diesel estate) and I'm 2 months away from changing cars.I'm going to order a GT86 as my daily hack and so will be able to a direct back to back comparison.Watch this space.
Chapppers said:
Where's the time from the track tyre run then? 3m 5s on standard tyres. It's good that you managed to objectively measure only one half of the comparison.
"the extra grip was showing up in the lap times too; over a second quicker from the word go."High 3:05s down to low 3:04s, if the above didn't explain it well enough. :-)
Danny Milner said:
"the extra grip was showing up in the lap times too; over a second quicker from the word go."
High 3:05s down to low 3:04s, if the above didn't explain it well enough. :-)
0.5-1% difference in lap times between a set of well-used tyres and set of brand new ones in a different brand and size with a driver who is improving their knowledge of a circuit?High 3:05s down to low 3:04s, if the above didn't explain it well enough. :-)
How scientific and repeatable was the test?
MC Bodge said:
0.5-1% difference in lap times between a set of well-used tyres and set of brand new ones in a different brand and size with a driver who is improving their knowledge of a circuit?
How scientific and repeatable was the test?
As you rightly point out, there were always going to be too many variables to make this a scientific comparison. That's why the question I was exploring was fast vs fun. A debate which is, by its very nature, subjective. And, ultimately, track days are neither test days nor qualifying sessions anyway. How scientific and repeatable was the test?
Yes, you are right that the time difference is not dramatic, but the car certainly felt very different. Had the tyres held on longer I'm sure that lap time would have come down further.
As for learning the circuit, I've probably been around spa 200 times, and while I'm not trying to say I'm in any way an expert on it, I don't think any improvement in lap times would be down to better track knowledge.
MC Bodge said:
Danny Milner said:
"the extra grip was showing up in the lap times too; over a second quicker from the word go."
High 3:05s down to low 3:04s, if the above didn't explain it well enough. :-)
0.5-1% difference in lap times between a set of well-used tyres and set of brand new ones in a different brand and size with a driver who is improving their knowledge of a circuit?High 3:05s down to low 3:04s, if the above didn't explain it well enough. :-)
How scientific and repeatable was the test?
Total time saved, 2.1 seconds (though I felt there was maybe another 0.5 seconds in the track tyre) around Donington National (so a 1.23 lap).
That time saving mirrors the improvement I've seen from other tests, which means the Megane should have been around 5 seconds faster at Spa.
Shurv said:
This is very interesting.I've got a 996 C4S as a weekend toy,but also get a company car.The GT86 has just appeared on my car list ( makes a change from the diesel estate) and I'm 2 months away from changing cars.I'm going to order a GT86 as my daily hack and so will be able to a direct back to back comparison.Watch this space.
You will not regret getting the GT86 it makes me smile every time I get in itgrip is fun on a track. not always relevant on bumpy B roads where the issue is keeping in contact with the road in the first place ... progress on B roads is perhaps more about suspension quality and adjustability - over-tyred cars that would roast you on a track are handicapped on bad (i.e., fun) roads - you see them slowly juddering and tramlining along, usually driven by some fashion victim who has spent a month's wages on big dopey wheels and "coat of paint" tyres, without usually knowing why. for real fun, tall skinny tyres after a nice shower of rain is the real deal as even standard road tyres can nowadays be too grippy to be much fun. also depends on your driving style - i feel safer when a car is sliding about all over the place.
V8RX7 said:
On a track 90% would opt for fast
On a FWD 90% would opt for fast
(not much fun losing grip in a FWD)
On a RWD, on the road which is where I spend 99.9% of my time, I'd opt for fun.
Yes, but there's fun and too much fun... in one of my premature senile moments, I thought it'd be a great idea to fit some Infinities to my BMW. Won't be making that mistake again- in 5th, at 50mph (not exactly high up the rev range or making progress), the tyres would just lose grip if you accelerated...On a FWD 90% would opt for fast
(not much fun losing grip in a FWD)
On a RWD, on the road which is where I spend 99.9% of my time, I'd opt for fun.
It's all about balance. I like mid-range tyres for this very reason. They're cheaper, and you can have more fun at lower speeds... therefore keeping your license slightly more intact.
tommy1973s said:
grip is fun on a track. not always relevant on bumpy B roads where the issue is keeping in contact with the road in the first place ... progress on B roads is perhaps more about suspension quality and adjustability - over-tyred cars that would roast you on a track are handicapped on bad (i.e., fun) roads -
Yes.You don't want a car with poor grip that can't stay in a straight line, though.
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