British Leyland -They were crap and they knew they were.
Discussion
The film stops short of the truth, the elephant in the room. The unions.
The designer should have been b
ked, the old fella too, the machine shop bloke the fella on the steel press....diciplined, sacked or whatever.
My Dad was a TV producer in the 60s and 70s. That was an industry highly unionised. He used to tell me stories like this:
Some equipment brike dowm (again)
You get the engineer out. He waits for the spark to turn off the power. Then a fitter has to come to remove the cover, the engineer begins work and fixes the fault. The fitter then returns and puts the cover back on. The sparks returns to put the power back on......A 5 minute job would take hours, meawhile the crew would now be in overtime and hungry, so the canteen people would be paid double time or whatever to give them tea and buns, by which time the guest on the show had to go, so you reschedule it all, but this time it has to be in London, so that's crew away for a day, first class travel, overnight stays etc etc.
Any deviation, and there would be union trouble.
Unions kiloed BL, the TV industry, shipyards, coal, steel, and lots more besides.
The designer should have been b
ked, the old fella too, the machine shop bloke the fella on the steel press....diciplined, sacked or whatever. My Dad was a TV producer in the 60s and 70s. That was an industry highly unionised. He used to tell me stories like this:
Some equipment brike dowm (again)
You get the engineer out. He waits for the spark to turn off the power. Then a fitter has to come to remove the cover, the engineer begins work and fixes the fault. The fitter then returns and puts the cover back on. The sparks returns to put the power back on......A 5 minute job would take hours, meawhile the crew would now be in overtime and hungry, so the canteen people would be paid double time or whatever to give them tea and buns, by which time the guest on the show had to go, so you reschedule it all, but this time it has to be in London, so that's crew away for a day, first class travel, overnight stays etc etc.
Any deviation, and there would be union trouble.
Unions kiloed BL, the TV industry, shipyards, coal, steel, and lots more besides.
MGJohn said:
<snip>
Oh the shame! Can you imagine a Yurgen or Fritz being pulled over on a German road late at night in a Police Car made in England...
... Be pleased to know if that does actually happen.
the most common UK export in Police use are Land Rover products ... possibly due the the reputation of all generations of range Rover for having a undocumented towing capacity in excess of 40 tonnes ...Oh the shame! Can you imagine a Yurgen or Fritz being pulled over on a German road late at night in a Police Car made in England...
... Be pleased to know if that does actually happen.ze chermans have had LR products for police and civil protection type roles - have beaten the Gay-wagen in the procurement race.
SuperHangOn said:
MGJohn said:
With no real home product of interest to me for a long time now, with that lack of home product choice in mind, I might consider something with a three pointed star up front.
Well the rust proofing will be reminiscent of BL anyway 
O/T In fairness, MG/Rovers don't seem to rust, even abused old 214's I still see knocking about. Try finding a panel on a late nineties Merc which doesn't resemble swiss cheese.
.
If I jack up one of the corners to access a wheel, the two wheels on that side become clear of the ground and I can open a door without it catching from signs of body flex! Try that with so called 'superior' product! Mind you, those cars have origins from the Rover Group-Honda partnership days which may or may not be significant with regard to body strength and anti-corrosion properties. In the latter years of that Rover-Honda partnership, right up and well into the BMW Takeover years, most of the Rover range sold in reasonable numbers and many cars from that time survive in good condition today. Certainly in my neck of the woods. Keep in mind that the youngest Rover or MG must be at least eight years old now, most much older.
The widespread anti-Brit mindset even extends to personalities. Nigel Mansell is a whinging "Brummie" ( simple not true ), not just by Top Gear's long one in the presenter trio, whilst Prost and more recently Alonso are regarded as driving Gods by many Brits.
There's no end to it so any bluddy wonder! Such distorted mindsets go a long way to explain why this Nation is no longer the green and pleasant land it once was and why things are they way they are.
Mind you, why should me, me, me give a flying fig? I'm alright Jack thank you very much. So, bollarxs to you lot, I'm off to by a new BMW so tough titty all you poor folks who can only afford to run some old MG or Rover.
So, yeah, lets blame it on the Unions, the Labour Government, the Tory Government in fact blame anyone part from those who really deserve the blame for the way things are. Who would that be MGJohn some may ask. Next time you and I look in the mirror, you will see the answer. In one way or another, we are ALL to blame.
Yes, a nice new 3-Series in black with 19" rims ... sorted. Then I can become a fully qualified member of the flock.
mph1977 said:
MGJohn said:
<snip>
Oh the shame! Can you imagine a Yurgen or Fritz being pulled over on a German road late at night in a Police Car made in England...... Be pleased to know if that does actually happen.
the most common UK export in Police use are Land Rover products ... possibly due the the reputation of all generations of range Rover for having a undocumented towing capacity in excess of 40 tonnes ...Oh the shame! Can you imagine a Yurgen or Fritz being pulled over on a German road late at night in a Police Car made in England...
... Be pleased to know if that does actually happen.ze chermans have had LR products for police and civil protection type roles - have beaten the Gay-wagen in the procurement race.
If that "ze chermins" is true then deep joy. Those mainland Europe types sometimes play fair ... after all. Who knew ? ... I didn't... What ever next? We'll be getting a EU contribution reduction next ...
The view from Australia is slightly different...
Firstly motorcycles (a little before my time - this comes from my late father).
Everyone knew that motorcycles (usually, but not exclusively, British) leaked oil and required frequent maintenance. Everyone took it for granted, then along came Honda, who assumed bikes should be oil-tight and reliable, and built them that way.
It only took 10 years or so for the Japanese to dominate the market.
Then they did the same to the car industry out here in the sixties and seventies.
The cars were mostly boring to drive and average lookers, but they had reasonable performance and legendary reliability. They were also simple to maintain.
Land rover owned the commercial 4wd market for years, then toyota's domination started in the seventies.
The early landcruisers were crude but solid, and could cruise at 120 kph for hours.
My personal opinion is that the British industry got complacent, and didn't keep up with either technology or manufacturing improvement. Maybe they didn't have the money?
I navigate in a 1967 fiat 1500 : twincam head & disk brakes in what was a mid-market 4 door saloon.
On the "desigh for manufacture" front, it was interesting to compare my (second hand) 1967 corolla with a 1967 triumph herald I bought some years later.
Apart from the fact that the herald's engine appeared to be a generation older - cast iron head, low revving, and slightly asthmatic performance - the difference in design philosophy was fascinating.
You could strip the corolla engine with a handful of spanners; they only used a small number of bolt sizes and lengths, which obviously saved money in production.
A casting would tend to be held on with half a dozen identical bolts.
The herald on the other hand felt like an engineer had said "we need slightly stronger bolts at the front" or whatever, so everything seemed to use multiple sized bolts to hold it together. They also seemed to use more sizes in total - at least I remember needing more tools for the herald.
I am not saying it was badly designed or engineered, but you could see it would cost more to build and maintain.
I ended up taking the roof off the herald, and putting the (hotted up) corolla motor and five speed box in it.
Rather a fun combination.
Firstly motorcycles (a little before my time - this comes from my late father).
Everyone knew that motorcycles (usually, but not exclusively, British) leaked oil and required frequent maintenance. Everyone took it for granted, then along came Honda, who assumed bikes should be oil-tight and reliable, and built them that way.
It only took 10 years or so for the Japanese to dominate the market.
Then they did the same to the car industry out here in the sixties and seventies.
The cars were mostly boring to drive and average lookers, but they had reasonable performance and legendary reliability. They were also simple to maintain.
Land rover owned the commercial 4wd market for years, then toyota's domination started in the seventies.
The early landcruisers were crude but solid, and could cruise at 120 kph for hours.
My personal opinion is that the British industry got complacent, and didn't keep up with either technology or manufacturing improvement. Maybe they didn't have the money?
I navigate in a 1967 fiat 1500 : twincam head & disk brakes in what was a mid-market 4 door saloon.
On the "desigh for manufacture" front, it was interesting to compare my (second hand) 1967 corolla with a 1967 triumph herald I bought some years later.
Apart from the fact that the herald's engine appeared to be a generation older - cast iron head, low revving, and slightly asthmatic performance - the difference in design philosophy was fascinating.
You could strip the corolla engine with a handful of spanners; they only used a small number of bolt sizes and lengths, which obviously saved money in production.
A casting would tend to be held on with half a dozen identical bolts.
The herald on the other hand felt like an engineer had said "we need slightly stronger bolts at the front" or whatever, so everything seemed to use multiple sized bolts to hold it together. They also seemed to use more sizes in total - at least I remember needing more tools for the herald.
I am not saying it was badly designed or engineered, but you could see it would cost more to build and maintain.
I ended up taking the roof off the herald, and putting the (hotted up) corolla motor and five speed box in it.
Rather a fun combination.
MG John mentioned about sales of rover being reasonable even leading up to the end. Anyone know the stats I would be interested to compare it to the other manufacturers today. As the 70s BL stuff was well before my time don't have any first hand evidence of what the build quality was like. Brother has a ZT though , on the whole he likes it , in 4 years just had the odd thing to deal with more niggles than anything else. Were they still owned by BMW it would be interesting to see where they would be as a company today.
ETA found some figures in 1999 sales were 110000 2003 sales were 96000. Last year fiat and Honda sold about 100k between them. 2012 sales for MG were 782.
ETA found some figures in 1999 sales were 110000 2003 sales were 96000. Last year fiat and Honda sold about 100k between them. 2012 sales for MG were 782.
Edited by dav123a on Sunday 2nd June 11:13
MGJohn said:
If I jack up one of the corners to access a wheel, the two wheels on that side become clear of the ground and I can open a door without it catching from signs of body flex! Try that with so called 'superior' product! Mind you, those cars have origins from the Rover Group-Honda partnership days which may or may not be significant with regard to body strength and anti-corrosion properties. In the latter years of that Rover-Honda partnership, right up and well into the BMW Takeover years, most of the Rover range sold in reasonable numbers and many cars from that time survive in good condition today. Certainly in my neck of the woods. Keep in mind that the youngest Rover or MG must be at least eight years old now, most much older.
I have never owned a car that flexes that badly...apart from a Marina...oh wait..MGJohn said:
The widespread anti-Brit mindset even extends to personalities. Nigel Mansell is a whinging "Brummie" ( simple not true ), not just by Top Gear's long one in the presenter trio, whilst Prost and more recently Alonso are regarded as driving Gods by many Brits.
You have issues. Are you a "Brummie" yourself by any chance 
MGJohn said:
There's no end to it so any bluddy wonder! Such distorted mindsets go a long way to explain why this Nation is no longer the green and pleasant land it once was and why things are they way they are.
And why a bitter man who was probably hoofed out the manufacturing door for being an 'a typical' pain in the fking ass would seek to claim everyone in the world is against his views?MGJohn said:
Mind you, why should me, me, me give a flying fig? I'm alright Jack thank you very much. So, bollarxs to you lot, I'm off to by a new BMW so tough titty all you poor folks who can only afford to run some old MG or Rover.
Glad you've seen sense.MGJohn said:
So, yeah, lets blame it on the Unions, the Labour Government, the Tory Government in fact blame anyone part from those who really deserve the blame for the way things are. Who would that be MGJohn some may ask. Next time you and I look in the mirror, you will see the answer. In one way or another, we are ALL to blame.
Poor management, low investment and a bone idle workforce full of communists like you. We're not all to blame, the unions killed the industry and its only the chapel heads who disagree. Look at Bob Crow, what a stand up guy. The land was full of them in the 70's...good riddance MGJohn said:
Yes, a nice new 3-Series in black with 19" rims ... sorted. Then I can become a fully qualified member of the flock.
Careful you might like it and not wax on about your fleet of salty old cars.MGJohn said:
ze chermans have had LR products for police and civil protection type roles - have beaten the Gay-wagen in the procurement race.
...
If that "ze chermins" is true then deep joy. Those mainland Europe types sometimes play fair ... after all. Who knew ? ... I didn't... What ever next? We'll be getting a EU contribution reduction next ...
You're a sad little man John and one that I laugh at. Xenophobic, bitter and always quick to point out the weaknesses in others yet unable to see your own....
If that "ze chermins" is true then deep joy. Those mainland Europe types sometimes play fair ... after all. Who knew ? ... I didn't... What ever next? We'll be getting a EU contribution reduction next ...
Good luck with the 'litle Englander thing', it's already worn out but....
Nothing to do with BL but as the thread is digressing slightly....
I work on the railways and the kind of seperated labour that used to exist at BL was not long ago part or life on the trains
Gearbox needs changing and group of fitters ready to go, but electrics need disconnecting, q shouts for sparky who would then twist off the litten plug disconnecting the loom from the box, grunters then haul the big cog swapper out and fit another, then shouts for the sparky wherever he is and all the delays that ensures for him to reconnect the loom .....its better now as we all do everything, but what a ballache
Used to work in the motor trade on vauxhalls, for many years the cars that came in for service had the normal faults, and quite usual to list a fair number of issues to report to the customer , we then changed franchise to Toyota, and there was nothing wrong with them, at all ....I was made redundant 6 months later due to no work, ....
British products at their best
I work on the railways and the kind of seperated labour that used to exist at BL was not long ago part or life on the trains
Gearbox needs changing and group of fitters ready to go, but electrics need disconnecting, q shouts for sparky who would then twist off the litten plug disconnecting the loom from the box, grunters then haul the big cog swapper out and fit another, then shouts for the sparky wherever he is and all the delays that ensures for him to reconnect the loom .....its better now as we all do everything, but what a ballache
Used to work in the motor trade on vauxhalls, for many years the cars that came in for service had the normal faults, and quite usual to list a fair number of issues to report to the customer , we then changed franchise to Toyota, and there was nothing wrong with them, at all ....I was made redundant 6 months later due to no work, ....
British products at their best
BL 'quality control' was a joke.
Many years ago I worked for a large BL franchisee - we had sites all over the West Midlands.
Our PDI dept was always over flowing with cars that needed remedial work doing before they hit the showroom floor. Some faults were minor & easily fixed whilst others were not.
We had cars delivered built to the wrong spec, built with parts missing, built badly.
Some barely built at all.
Including one Austin Princess that was delivered, fully built, unpainted......
It got through all of the so called quality control processes in its bare primer wit not a drop of paint applied to the shell of the car.
BL wanted the car back from us so that they could investigate the reasons for the car being supplied the way it was.
We said no, you can't have it back. They said they would withdraw the franchise if we kept the car. We did & they didn't.
That car still lives today in an air conditioned garage somewhere in Birmingham.
I think I have photos of it somewhere which I will look for one day.
BL products were, in general, st regardless of what some people say. Those of us unfortunate enough to have to try & sell those god-awful things know just how bad they were.
My preferred mode of transport at the time would have been a Ford. Which wouldn't have gone down well so we were given huge discounts to buy BL products which is why i owned two Austin Allegro's......
My god they were crap cars. Probably the worst cars I ever owned.
Apart from my Austin Metro - which used to spill fuel from the poorly designed filler cap all over the rear tyres which resulted in many of them crashing.
Happy days of care free motoring in BL products?
I don't think so. They were, & still are, crap.
IMO.
Many years ago I worked for a large BL franchisee - we had sites all over the West Midlands.
Our PDI dept was always over flowing with cars that needed remedial work doing before they hit the showroom floor. Some faults were minor & easily fixed whilst others were not.
We had cars delivered built to the wrong spec, built with parts missing, built badly.
Some barely built at all.
Including one Austin Princess that was delivered, fully built, unpainted......
It got through all of the so called quality control processes in its bare primer wit not a drop of paint applied to the shell of the car.
BL wanted the car back from us so that they could investigate the reasons for the car being supplied the way it was.
We said no, you can't have it back. They said they would withdraw the franchise if we kept the car. We did & they didn't.
That car still lives today in an air conditioned garage somewhere in Birmingham.
I think I have photos of it somewhere which I will look for one day.
BL products were, in general, s
t regardless of what some people say. Those of us unfortunate enough to have to try & sell those god-awful things know just how bad they were.My preferred mode of transport at the time would have been a Ford. Which wouldn't have gone down well so we were given huge discounts to buy BL products which is why i owned two Austin Allegro's......
My god they were crap cars. Probably the worst cars I ever owned.
Apart from my Austin Metro - which used to spill fuel from the poorly designed filler cap all over the rear tyres which resulted in many of them crashing.
Happy days of care free motoring in BL products?
I don't think so. They were, & still are, crap.
IMO.
Very interesting film. Even if they had adopted the "no fault forward" principle used these days, their suppliers etc would still have hampered them. Why didnt they reject unfit components? Why didnt they build them properly. Even without the unions, why not revamp the production line frm minis to the bigger allegros. Why why why?
Sadly every british manufacturer is tarnished to some extent by the 70s, even though they are better then the opposition these days
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/jd-power-survey-20...
Sadly every british manufacturer is tarnished to some extent by the 70s, even though they are better then the opposition these days
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/jd-power-survey-20...
MGJohn said:
Clarkson repeatedly spearheading the negativity onslaught with vigour where home product cars are concerned.
Utter bullst!!There was an episode of TopGear where Clarkson praised the ride of a 600 series Rover over a pothole deep enough to contain dinosaurs.
But don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant eh?
Flushed out several "mindsets" on this thread. Part of my Meister Plan... A plan that actually worked ... Now there's a thing ..
Lots more evidence to support my "Any Bluddy Wonder" stance.
Yonex has "previous" also running to also ran form.
.
And what on earth is wrong with people buying foreign cars if they want to, including the police? If you can get a superior product elsewhere, then I see nothing wrong with that.
.One "wrong" thing springs to mind. Exporting jobs en masse.
Did it ever enter your mindset that with a eye to the longer term benefit for the Nation as a whole, better to build "superior" product here!
Choice comes in many forms. The short sighted Nation chosing decline.
No, widespread destruction of manufacturing as an 'efficient' way of dealing with the 'Union Problem' by severing their lifeblood and removing the Industrial Spine has resulted in a spineless nation. That's far more effective rather than actually solving that obvious problem to the benefit of all. Only mugs actually "earn" a living. Better to asset strip and "take" a profit. Even a pre-Thatcher Tory Prime minister accused her of knocking out the nation's "family silver" spiv-like on the cheap. What a long term benefit winner that has become for the nation as a whole. Yes, asset strip and run rather than invest beneficially in the longer term and actually produce "superior" stuff. Only fools and horses....
Yes, wind down manufacturing and rely on the Bankers and other City types to sustain a healthy nationwide economy. That's the way to go ...... with added bonus of huge rewards for ... failure.
Nothing wrong at all. Choice ... A nation chosing to get so many things quite simply ... WRONG!
So those vast numbers of Brits with the Yonex "mindset", I shall be extremely delighted to be proven wrong by you all. I really would but the only thing I really fear is that it will never happen.
Right... off to watch SKY at Night on the BBC right now. With no commercials unless we are mugs enough to allow Murdoch to get his way.... again for the umpteenth time.
Lots more evidence to support my "Any Bluddy Wonder" stance.
Yonex has "previous" also running to also ran form.
BorkFactor said:
g3org3y said:
.
What has happened is no accident or series of minor unfortunate events..
.
Exactly this. What has happened is no accident or series of minor unfortunate events..
.
.
And what on earth is wrong with people buying foreign cars if they want to, including the police? If you can get a superior product elsewhere, then I see nothing wrong with that.
.
Did it ever enter your mindset that with a eye to the longer term benefit for the Nation as a whole, better to build "superior" product here!
Choice comes in many forms. The short sighted Nation chosing decline.
No, widespread destruction of manufacturing as an 'efficient' way of dealing with the 'Union Problem' by severing their lifeblood and removing the Industrial Spine has resulted in a spineless nation. That's far more effective rather than actually solving that obvious problem to the benefit of all. Only mugs actually "earn" a living. Better to asset strip and "take" a profit. Even a pre-Thatcher Tory Prime minister accused her of knocking out the nation's "family silver" spiv-like on the cheap. What a long term benefit winner that has become for the nation as a whole. Yes, asset strip and run rather than invest beneficially in the longer term and actually produce "superior" stuff. Only fools and horses....
Yes, wind down manufacturing and rely on the Bankers and other City types to sustain a healthy nationwide economy. That's the way to go ...... with added bonus of huge rewards for ... failure.
Nothing wrong at all. Choice ... A nation chosing to get so many things quite simply ... WRONG!
So those vast numbers of Brits with the Yonex "mindset", I shall be extremely delighted to be proven wrong by you all. I really would but the only thing I really fear is that it will never happen.
Right... off to watch SKY at Night on the BBC right now. With no commercials unless we are mugs enough to allow Murdoch to get his way.... again for the umpteenth time.
Edited by MGJohn on Sunday 2nd June 23:49
So what British made alternative to my 3 series should I have bought instead? What 5 series alternative is there? Or 7 series?
I am not specifically talking about BMW, but more the market segments that these cars represent.
If the UK actually made viable alternatives that were competitive in their sectors then things would be different, but my point is that we simply don't (as far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) so why blame consumers for purchasing forgiven cars?
I am not specifically talking about BMW, but more the market segments that these cars represent.
If the UK actually made viable alternatives that were competitive in their sectors then things would be different, but my point is that we simply don't (as far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) so why blame consumers for purchasing forgiven cars?
Edited by BorkFactor on Monday 3rd June 00:02
BorkFactor said:
So what British made alternative to my 3 series should I have bought instead? What 5 series alternative is there? Or 7 series?
I am not specifically talking about BMW, but more the market segments that these cars represent.
If the UK actually made viable alternatives that were competitive in their sectors then things would be different, but my point is that we simply don't (as far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) so why blame consumers for purchasing forgiven cars?
British alternative to the BMW 5 series is the Jaguar XF and the alternative to the BMW 7 series is the Jaguar XJ.I am not specifically talking about BMW, but more the market segments that these cars represent.
If the UK actually made viable alternatives that were competitive in their sectors then things would be different, but my point is that we simply don't (as far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) so why blame consumers for purchasing forgiven cars?
Edited by BorkFactor on Monday 3rd June 00:02
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