British Leyland -They were crap and they knew they were.
Discussion
BorkFactor said:
MJK 24 said:
They're designed, engineered and manufactured in the UK.
Thats at least something! I wonder how much of the money from them actually stays in the UK though. I assume it is the same story with Land Rover? Mercedes Benz were (still are?) in partnership with Chrysler. This hasn't diluted their German origins. Again, in the 80's, all their manufacturing was done in Germany whereas now some has shifted to America and quite possibly elsewhere.
Jaguar will always be a British brand to me despite wherever in the world the ownership is based. They're engineered and manufactured here. Whilst the British motor industry may appear to be a shadow of its former self, we're currently exporting more cars from the UK than ever before. So much so that the UK is now a net exporter of cars for the first time in history.
BorkFactor said:
MJK 24 said:
They're designed, engineered and manufactured in the UK.
Thats at least something! I wonder how much of the money from them actually stays in the UK though. I assume it is the same story with Land Rover? As with all these things, its important to see the wider picture, and make a comparison. The UK has more small manufactueres then anywhere else in the world. And they are owned by British owners. So does this make us unique, as most countries have 100% of vehicle manufacturer at least part owned by foreign investers
Its also important to realise how far vehcile quality and manufactuer has come in the last 35-odd years. Yes Bl cars wee poorle made. But so was almost everyone else. That film was about BL. It could have been about Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Renalt, Peugeot, Citroen, Opal, Ford, Seat.... in fact almost any of the european manufacturers.
Ironically Britain is now producing as many cars as it ever did. It seems the British worker can build cars perfectly well, but the company does need to be foreign owned.
Mind you, with regards to British motor manufacturers the crap ones went bust and the good ones were sold into foreign hands the moment they turned/appeared profitable, so either way we ended up with no major car brands of our own.
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Read a very interesting article over the weekend about how Germany has come to be the strong man of Europe (again). My word, there is a mind-set entirely different from our own, from politicians and business leaders downwards. Germany does seem to have a distinctly socialistic bent to how it goes about things, with unions playing a major part and businesses acting with local government to ensure (seemingly) as many can benefit as possible.
Mind you, with regards to British motor manufacturers the crap ones went bust and the good ones were sold into foreign hands the moment they turned/appeared profitable, so either way we ended up with no major car brands of our own.
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Read a very interesting article over the weekend about how Germany has come to be the strong man of Europe (again). My word, there is a mind-set entirely different from our own, from politicians and business leaders downwards. Germany does seem to have a distinctly socialistic bent to how it goes about things, with unions playing a major part and businesses acting with local government to ensure (seemingly) as many can benefit as possible.
MGJohn said:
No, widespread destruction of manufacturing as an 'efficient' way of dealing with the 'Union Problem' by severing their lifeblood and removing the Industrial Spine has resulted in a spineless nation. That's far more effective rather than actually solving that obvious problem to the benefit of all. Only mugs actually "earn" a living. Better to asset strip and "take" a profit. Even a pre-Thatcher Tory Prime minister accused her of knocking out the nation's "family silver" spiv-like on the cheap. What a long term benefit winner that has become for the nation as a whole. Yes, asset strip and run rather than invest beneficially in the longer term and actually produce "superior" stuff. Only fools and horses....
The only problem with this is as a country we actually still make stuff and much of it is world leading in terms of quality, take a trip to Rolls Royce in Derby to see modern aero engines being built, JCB in Rocester. Then in the automotive sector you've got Nissan producing for export Sunderland and now a design centre in London. JLR designing and producing in Warwickshire, including engine production from 2015, an investment incidentally signed off by TATA who could have based the plant anywhere in the world. Toyota in Derbyshire and Deeside or Honda in Swindon. Car production is up to levels last seen in the 70's but with higher percentage now being exported, modern factories quite honestly require less workers per unit of production so industrial employment levels will never return to 60's/70's levels. Plastic chicken said:
The intro & the outro featured Stratford Johns (Z-Cars, Softly Softly etc), who also narrated. Most, if not all of the speaking parts were played by actors, including Trevor Bannister (Are you Being Served?), Trevor Eve (Shoestring etc), Michael Robbins (On the Buses), Madeline Smith (anything involving eye candy) & Kenny Lynch (anything involving a token black person).
Yes, the build-quality of Leyland cars was abysmal, but 'Buy British' was the theme of the day, and that's what we did. Before effective rust-proofing, the main car-killer was tin-worm, and all makes suffered from that, surely?
Leyland could also be credited with several innovations, the Mini being the obvious one, but also the Maxi - possibly the first proper hatchback.
Yes, the build-quality of Leyland cars was abysmal, but 'Buy British' was the theme of the day, and that's what we did. Before effective rust-proofing, the main car-killer was tin-worm, and all makes suffered from that, surely?
Leyland could also be credited with several innovations, the Mini being the obvious one, but also the Maxi - possibly the first proper hatchback.
pendant mode : your mistaking stratford johns ( sitting down ) with
frank windsor and tony adams
with trevor eve 
MJK 24 said:
BorkFactor said:
MJK 24 said:
They're designed, engineered and manufactured in the UK.
Thats at least something! I wonder how much of the money from them actually stays in the UK though. I assume it is the same story with Land Rover? <snip>
Jaguar will always be a British brand to me despite wherever in the world the ownership is based. They're engineered and manufactured here. Whilst the British motor industry may appear to be a shadow of its former self, we're currently exporting more cars from the UK than ever before. So much so that the UK is now a net exporter of cars for the first time in history.
BritMoCo's problems go back to before the 1970s, primary cause being the dominant position held in the late 1940s and into the 1950s; so we can blame the Germans for failing to decimate our car industry and for losing the war.
Germany succeeds as a country because they value their engineers.
Germany succeeds as a country because they value their engineers.
MJK 24 said:
Mercedes Benz were (still are?) in partnership with Chrysler. This hasn't diluted their German origins. Again, in the 80's, all their manufacturing was done in Germany whereas now some has shifted to America and quite possibly elsewhere.
Compare quality pre-Chrysler (W126 etc) to after (rusty, poorly built junk). (They are independent again now but a lot of damage was done).
V8 Fettler said:
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Germany succeeds as a country because they value their engineers.
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EXACTLY. The UK's priorities have been all a'cock where class, status and white-blue collars are concerned. Germany succeeds as a country because they value their engineers.
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At all levels, this Nation over-rewards the parasitical rather than the productive. Time and again, remuneration packages are all too frequently paid rather than actually earned or merited. Huge rewards for failure and under achievement is still rife no matter what our very biased media would have us believe.
As a nation, our future is both assured and deserved. Germany know that, so do numerous other nations who have a different set of priorities.
Meantime, like many others, I'm off to but a new car. My choice will be good for the economy and provide employment. Not here of course, those work-shy Brummies do not deserve a job.
Finally, if proof were needed, this BL brainwashing and ignorance is evident with a high proportion of posters on this thread. Cars mentioned had nothing to do with BL. that film is 100% accurate and those are not actors, but the real problem workers and management. Issigonis produced the Morris Minor as well as the Mini. That Issigonis transverse engine, front wheel drive configuration copied by just about every other manufacturer on the planet since.
So carry on putting foreign product on a higher pedestal rather than producing better stuff at home. It's good for the economy and provides much employment. Never forget, only British cars have head gasket problems, been on the TV and everything so must be kosher ... init.
Have a nice day "I'm alright Jack" suckers ... your time will surely come...
Currently watching Ed Balls on TV. Good grief... we've got no chance.
MGJohn said:
One "wrong" thing springs to mind. Exporting jobs en masse.
Did it ever enter your mindset that with a eye to the longer term benefit for the Nation as a whole, better to build "superior" product here!
Choice comes in many forms. The short sighted Nation chosing decline.
No, widespread destruction of manufacturing as an 'efficient' way of dealing with the 'Union Problem' by severing their lifeblood and removing the Industrial Spine has resulted in a spineless nation. That's far more effective rather than actually solving that obvious problem to the benefit of all. Only mugs actually "earn" a living. Better to asset strip and "take" a profit. Even a pre-Thatcher Tory Prime minister accused her of knocking out the nation's "family silver" spiv-like on the cheap. What a long term benefit winner that has become for the nation as a whole. Yes, asset strip and run rather than invest beneficially in the longer term and actually produce "superior" stuff. Only fools and horses....
Yes, wind down manufacturing and rely on the Bankers and other City types to sustain a healthy nationwide economy. That's the way to go ...... with added bonus of huge rewards for ... failure.
Nothing wrong at all. Choice ... A nation chosing to get so many things quite simply ... WRONG!
So those vast numbers of Brits with the Yonex "mindset", I shall be extremely delighted to be proven wrong by you all. I really would but the only thing I really fear is that it will never happen.
Right... off to watch SKY at Night on the BBC right now. With no commercials unless we are mugs enough to allow Murdoch to get his way.... again for the umpteenth time.
The first BMW I remember seeing on my way to school was a 528 new Y reg. The street was was full of the usual BL and Ford cars and the odd Audi or boxy Volvo.Did it ever enter your mindset that with a eye to the longer term benefit for the Nation as a whole, better to build "superior" product here!
Choice comes in many forms. The short sighted Nation chosing decline.
No, widespread destruction of manufacturing as an 'efficient' way of dealing with the 'Union Problem' by severing their lifeblood and removing the Industrial Spine has resulted in a spineless nation. That's far more effective rather than actually solving that obvious problem to the benefit of all. Only mugs actually "earn" a living. Better to asset strip and "take" a profit. Even a pre-Thatcher Tory Prime minister accused her of knocking out the nation's "family silver" spiv-like on the cheap. What a long term benefit winner that has become for the nation as a whole. Yes, asset strip and run rather than invest beneficially in the longer term and actually produce "superior" stuff. Only fools and horses....
Yes, wind down manufacturing and rely on the Bankers and other City types to sustain a healthy nationwide economy. That's the way to go ...... with added bonus of huge rewards for ... failure.
Nothing wrong at all. Choice ... A nation chosing to get so many things quite simply ... WRONG!
So those vast numbers of Brits with the Yonex "mindset", I shall be extremely delighted to be proven wrong by you all. I really would but the only thing I really fear is that it will never happen.
Right... off to watch SKY at Night on the BBC right now. With no commercials unless we are mugs enough to allow Murdoch to get his way.... again for the umpteenth time.
Edited by MGJohn on Sunday 2nd June 23:49
The BMW stood out from all the rest. You could argue that the BL an Ford cars were built better, but very few aspired to want them and if care to recall the context of the time when these German brands became truly desirable, there was NOTHING the British had to match the Germans in any category. Now you can argue that the MG's were better than the Golf, but an MG Maestro over a Golf GTi... the writing was on the wall the day those three little letters became the byword for social mobility.
The likes of BMW, Audi and Mercedes became the cars that people aspired to and the killer thing is; bought.
Really, your little England rant, as quaint and as chocolate boxy as it is, has little place in a world where the customer decides that X is better than Y and Y just happens to be a reminder of all bad things; bullying unions, strikes, three day weeks, work to rule, no electricity, spam fritters and crap TV.
Simple, we looked across the water and bought Japanese because they are more reliable and German because they hold a certain clear appeal. You criticise 'us' for doing that, yet you offer no explaination as to why, even ten years after the introduction of the Golf GTi and the M cars, there was no viable British competitor - and these were the cars that needed to be made, cars that people dreamed of owning, not some muddled aged MG Maestro with it's string back gloves and driving hat image.
The industry failed to deliver, to keep up, let alone lead. It died because we saw better and bought better. You only have to take a quick look around to see just how many 190 Mercedes are still around to appreciate just how much 'better' was.
t it was.b0rk said:
The only problem with this is as a country we actually still make stuff and much of it is world leading in terms of quality, take a trip to Rolls Royce in Derby to see modern aero engines being built, JCB in Rocester. Then in the automotive sector you've got Nissan producing for export Sunderland and now a design centre in London. JLR designing and producing in Warwickshire, including engine production from 2015, an investment incidentally signed off by TATA who could have based the plant anywhere in the world. Toyota in Derbyshire and Deeside or Honda in Swindon. Car production is up to levels last seen in the 70's but with higher percentage now being exported, modern factories quite honestly require less workers per unit of production so industrial employment levels will never return to 60's/70's levels.
Whilst all that is true, UK manufacturing is a slim fraction of what it once was and that works all the way down the employment figures. Far fewer stepping stones for a career and not many more for a job. It did not used to be like that and the huge number of jobless youngsters, many well educated with good academic qualifications never had a proper job let alone an actual career. We need to produce far more than that we are currently doing. Asset stripping, outsourcing for the quick buck is never going to be the answer.I do not think the future for this nation will be better unless there's a complete change of mindset and blame placed where is is justified. With us all who have played a part to a lesser or greater extent in making things the way they are.
Making things a poor choice of words there.
Those British based Japanese outfits you mentioned have threatened to up sticks and leave in the past and that is always a possibility. When it suits, could be a matter of time. TATA could steadily move the bulk of production to areas where costs are more favourable.
Not in the UK, but elsewhere on the planet, now Oriental owned MG are trading on the "Britishness" of cars made in China carrying the Octagon badge. Selling MGs in many other countries. They are not mugs, they have wiser priorities elsewhere in the world markets hence very limited attempts to sell new MGs here.
More shuffling papers in the city and banking will not sustain this failing economy. Producing good things on a much larger scale than is currently the case may just have a chance of doing that. Trouble is, the way things are currently suit many folks and not just financially. Including many of those we entrust the Nation's well being.
Be delighted to have any PHer with a wider range of vision than I and the many too narrowly focused here to illustrate where things can be improved to the benefit of most if not all. Rather than just a slim and diminishing privileged segment of the population which is most definitely the current scenario. I fear it's a near impossible task unless there's a massive and widespread change of mindset priorities.
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