RE: TVR - 'never say never'
Discussion
Convert said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
Unfortunately they tend to sit in their bedrooms dreaming at a computer keyboard rather than buying cars in the real world. Otherwise they would be out buying this car, properly engineered for sale worldwide, and meeting other human beings.
Oh do feel free to f
k right off.I've met quite a few people through my TVR, in fact there were several hundred of them @ Chatsworth this year.
Ps Let us know when you've saved up enough to trade your coxster in for a proper Porsche...
J4CKO said:
remind me how I felt ever time a Stone Roses reunion was mentioned or whether Ghostbusters 3 is going to be made, all through the nineties and noughties nobody ever thought the Roses would play together but they did. It is always a possibility that he TVR name will surface again but it depends on what basis when (if) it does, if its a lightly disguised MGF then thats not good but if its a good looking, yank engined lairy sportscar for a decent price then its all good.
The roses have blown my mind 3 times in 8 months... there is hope!unrepentant said:
Trouble is most of them, including you, bought their TVR's used and for considerably less than the cost of a new one. When TVR was still making cars there were not enough people willing to buy them new and there would not be now, even if by some miracle a new car ever got produced. Most people who are joyous over the "news" would not be lined up to pony up the necessary for a new car and most of those that are able to would not be willing to.
All valid points, but equally applicable to most car manufatcurers.What we have to ask is why people were unwilling to buy new.
Which brings us back to the percieved unreliability.
I refer you to a post by another TVR enthusiast.
Wedg1e said:
TVRs were always enthusiasts cars. They were driven by people who could work a spanner and, to be fair, a lot of mass-market cars weren't exactly any better screwed-together than TVRs offerings...
Then along came the 1990s and a glut of young guys who went from driving a newish Peugeot 205 (perhaps mummy's cast-off) at Uni to having so much disposable income they didn't know what to do with it, so they bought a TVR 'cos it was good for their image
The slightest thing that went wrong turned into a major breakdown; they'd never done the teenage kerbside fixing that most of us of a certain age had to and hadn't the first idea of how anything worked, so they turned to the newfound media of the internet and complained long and loud about how 'unreliable' TVRs were.
Meanwhile cars like the 911 moved on in leaps and bounds, backed by the R&D of multi-million pound corporations and international sales. The per-unit cost was almost certainly less but they sold for more than a TVR, so those who'd almost-but-not-quite 'made it' bought a TVR instead - 'cos it was still good for their image, bit of a rebel, all that - and then, as you can see in certain quarters, moaned like phuck 'cos they thought their thousands ought to be buying Porsche build quality. Er no, numb-nuts: you're paying for the exclusivity of ownership, for wages of real, hands-on blokes, not for the profit margins generated by stamping presses, welding robots and plastic-injection machines.
A TVR is almost like a commissioned piece of artwork: you don't want exactly the same as someone else. It's like having Dave up at Wolds Wood make you an oak table to exactly fit your space instead of going to Oakfurnitureland and buying something 'close', knocked-out by Chinamen for a handful of rice a fortnight. It may be cheaper but you can bet that the fat cat at the top, handing out the rice, is taking a bigger per-unit cut.
Granted, PW did sometimes get it wrong, like buying in chocolate engine parts from the Far East, but like any business he had books to balance. Once the supply issue was solved, the engines were fantastic.
If you want a Porsche or a Ferrari, save your bonus/ tax fiddles and buy one. But for phuck's sake leave TVRs to those who appreciate them for what they are.
Then along came the 1990s and a glut of young guys who went from driving a newish Peugeot 205 (perhaps mummy's cast-off) at Uni to having so much disposable income they didn't know what to do with it, so they bought a TVR 'cos it was good for their image
The slightest thing that went wrong turned into a major breakdown; they'd never done the teenage kerbside fixing that most of us of a certain age had to and hadn't the first idea of how anything worked, so they turned to the newfound media of the internet and complained long and loud about how 'unreliable' TVRs were.
Meanwhile cars like the 911 moved on in leaps and bounds, backed by the R&D of multi-million pound corporations and international sales. The per-unit cost was almost certainly less but they sold for more than a TVR, so those who'd almost-but-not-quite 'made it' bought a TVR instead - 'cos it was still good for their image, bit of a rebel, all that - and then, as you can see in certain quarters, moaned like phuck 'cos they thought their thousands ought to be buying Porsche build quality. Er no, numb-nuts: you're paying for the exclusivity of ownership, for wages of real, hands-on blokes, not for the profit margins generated by stamping presses, welding robots and plastic-injection machines.
A TVR is almost like a commissioned piece of artwork: you don't want exactly the same as someone else. It's like having Dave up at Wolds Wood make you an oak table to exactly fit your space instead of going to Oakfurnitureland and buying something 'close', knocked-out by Chinamen for a handful of rice a fortnight. It may be cheaper but you can bet that the fat cat at the top, handing out the rice, is taking a bigger per-unit cut.
Granted, PW did sometimes get it wrong, like buying in chocolate engine parts from the Far East, but like any business he had books to balance. Once the supply issue was solved, the engines were fantastic.
If you want a Porsche or a Ferrari, save your bonus/ tax fiddles and buy one. But for phuck's sake leave TVRs to those who appreciate them for what they are.
unrepentant said:
Trouble is most of them, including you, bought their TVR's used and for considerably less than the cost of a new one. When TVR was still making cars there were not enough people willing to buy them new and there would not be now, even if by some miracle a new car ever got produced. Most people who are joyous over the "news" would not be lined up to pony up the necessary for a new car and most of those that are able to would not be willing to.
Arguably any new car should not be built around what current owners expect but what future buyers expect. While you need to support the core fan base, with any project like this you have to remain focussed on future buyers and on bringing new money into the brand. Unless you go the super car route or track car route then you must consider the modern luxuries considered essential by the average buyer.
TVRs of old fit this very well. They were actually sumptuous environments to be in and were good GTs as well as sports cars but in 2013 there will need to be modern expectations met to attract fresh blood.
This is why I suspect that any future lies in a bought in drivetrain of suitable character and aim for low volumes and a high price tag. Sumptuous British interior with a classic nod, modern exterior and power and handling. Monetise upgrades and support and try and find someone who will support a stripped out racer in the right series for PR.
I feel the key is to build a car which can be parked next to a 911 at a country hotel and make the owner look more succesful and professional.
elephantstone said:
J4CKO said:
remind me how I felt ever time a Stone Roses reunion was mentioned or whether Ghostbusters 3 is going to be made, all through the nineties and noughties nobody ever thought the Roses would play together but they did. It is always a possibility that he TVR name will surface again but it depends on what basis when (if) it does, if its a lightly disguised MGF then thats not good but if its a good looking, yank engined lairy sportscar for a decent price then its all good.
The roses have blown my mind 3 times in 8 months... there is hope!
maybe they can work together with Trident, they use a nice stainless steel chassis in their Iceni etc.
said:
The Trident Iceni Grand Tourer is built on a stainless steel 4003 grade chassis which is guaranteed against corrosion for 100 years. Trident claim that this chassis is extremely strong and offers class leading torsional rigidity. Furthermore its central longitudinal spine (roll over bar) and strategically positioned folds and shapes within the chassis, offer high levels of driver and passenger protection against frontal and rear impact. The body is an unstressed composite unit which is bolted to the separate chassis.
http://www.diseno-art.com/news_content/2012/08/trident-iceni-grand-tourer/they could also use Ford engines, a V6 and a V8 Ford have also some great engines.
In the past they did the 3.0 V6 in the TVR 3000 series I guess,
they have now a nice 3.7 V6 with 300+hp
Ofcorse a V8 must also be in the range, but such powerful V6 can be great too, it can keep the weight balance better between the wheels and is lighter etc.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/08/11/ford-f-150-engi...
In the past they did the 3.0 V6 in the TVR 3000 series I guess,
they have now a nice 3.7 V6 with 300+hp
Ofcorse a V8 must also be in the range, but such powerful V6 can be great too, it can keep the weight balance better between the wheels and is lighter etc.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/08/11/ford-f-150-engi...
here some soundclip of a Ford Mustang with such V6 3.7, one standard and one with sport exhaust and that last one sounds rather nice me thinks.
http://youtu.be/UmayGET1SAc
I also saw one with such 3.7 V6 engine and a supercharger on it, giving 443 RWhp
http://youtu.be/UmayGET1SAc
I also saw one with such 3.7 V6 engine and a supercharger on it, giving 443 RWhp
Convert said:
All valid points, but equally applicable to most car manufatcurers. What we have to ask is why people were unwilling to buy new.
Which brings us back to the percieved unreliability.
If you seriously think TVR collapsed to an undeserved image of poor quality you are dreaming.Which brings us back to the percieved unreliability.
The company collapsed because it was simply not selling cars which more than a tiny handful of loyal "enthusiasts" wanted to buy. And part of the reason for low sales was a shocking and fully deserved reputation for failure to remain in one piece for very long.
Lotus have similar issues today, although for other reasons - not quality. Hopefully they will start to build £50k-£70k cars which enough customers want to buy.
Ozzie Osmond said:
By the way, your jibes about "Coxster" and "can't afford a real Porsche" say rather more about your own inadequacies than they do about Mr Porsche's customers.
Your complete inability to engage in any debate without bombastically denigrating everyone who doesn't share your opinions rather speaks volumes of your own inadequacies. So, what went wrong with your TVR?
Ozzie Osmond said:
Convert said:
All valid points, but equally applicable to most car manufatcurers. What we have to ask is why people were unwilling to buy new.
Which brings us back to the percieved unreliability.
If you seriously think TVR collapsed to an undeserved image of poor quality you are dreaming.Which brings us back to the percieved unreliability.
The company collapsed because it was simply not selling cars which more than a tiny handful of loyal "enthusiasts" wanted to buy. And part of the reason for low sales was a shocking and fully deserved reputation for failure to remain in one piece for very long.
Lotus have similar issues today, although for other reasons - not quality. Hopefully they will start to build £50k-£70k cars which enough customers want to buy.
DonkeyApple said:
I think the LS is a fantastic design. But public perception is on the other side. At a certain price level they are basically laughed at. It's unfounded but the case. If you are selling a product above a key level you can't fight popular perception of the people in that bracket.
LS is perfect if they are going cheap but if they want the luxury interiors and to build on where the brand left off it would be suicide.
Offer a mainstream, high end drive train. Frankly, it doesn't even need to be British. I think a relaunched TVR would actually be accepted if it used something from AMG etc. especially if they plan overseas sales. But I'd prefer a Jag or Aston unit and all the associated tuning packages already available and awaiting rebranding and selling as upgrades.
The perception thing is an interesting aspect as to engine origin. Many years ago when changing the engine in a kitcar I was bemused at how a £20k Elise had an engine with only 2/3 of the power of a £1k 4 pot engine I was purchasing!LS is perfect if they are going cheap but if they want the luxury interiors and to build on where the brand left off it would be suicide.
Offer a mainstream, high end drive train. Frankly, it doesn't even need to be British. I think a relaunched TVR would actually be accepted if it used something from AMG etc. especially if they plan overseas sales. But I'd prefer a Jag or Aston unit and all the associated tuning packages already available and awaiting rebranding and selling as upgrades.
From all the posts on speculation I've seen since the TVR ownership news I am guessing that any new cars would have to either be very simple or rather exotic. There is a like a no go zone, in the 70-100k bracket probably.
(On that note, what do you make of the G60? Lovely CF mid engined car, but "just" a Ford crate V6. This doesn't match the engine/car ratio for my own taste...)
So a tubular chassis car (but with a G40 standard of cage for any coupe) with big bhp that could easily keep up with a GT3 Porkmobile on a track day (which would probably mean LS for value for money). Very simple to make with very small/low cost improvements over previous models. Maybe an option for I6 engine for those who aren't power obsessed. Is it feasible to sell a "car with a V8" and do an engine swap to a I6 even before the V8 has ever been fired up? (paperwork, cough?)
OR
Something with a CF body and exotic engine (lower cost UK made front engined Zonda). But then there would be the problem of conflict with the original engine makers cars. So maybe a modded s/c Jag engine would be (in theory) the most suitable option there.
RichardD said:
DonkeyApple said:
I think the LS is a fantastic design. But public perception is on the other side. At a certain price level they are basically laughed at. It's unfounded but the case. If you are selling a product above a key level you can't fight popular perception of the people in that bracket.
LS is perfect if they are going cheap but if they want the luxury interiors and to build on where the brand left off it would be suicide.
Offer a mainstream, high end drive train. Frankly, it doesn't even need to be British. I think a relaunched TVR would actually be accepted if it used something from AMG etc. especially if they plan overseas sales. But I'd prefer a Jag or Aston unit and all the associated tuning packages already available and awaiting rebranding and selling as upgrades.
The perception thing is an interesting aspect as to engine origin. Many years ago when changing the engine in a kitcar I was bemused at how a £20k Elise had an engine with only 2/3 of the power of a £1k 4 pot engine I was purchasing!LS is perfect if they are going cheap but if they want the luxury interiors and to build on where the brand left off it would be suicide.
Offer a mainstream, high end drive train. Frankly, it doesn't even need to be British. I think a relaunched TVR would actually be accepted if it used something from AMG etc. especially if they plan overseas sales. But I'd prefer a Jag or Aston unit and all the associated tuning packages already available and awaiting rebranding and selling as upgrades.
From all the posts on speculation I've seen since the TVR ownership news I am guessing that any new cars would have to either be very simple or rather exotic. There is a like a no go zone, in the 70-100k bracket probably.
(On that note, what do you make of the G60? Lovely CF mid engined car, but "just" a Ford crate V6. This doesn't match the engine/car ratio for my own taste...)
So a tubular chassis car (but with a G40 standard of cage for any coupe) with big bhp that could easily keep up with a GT3 Porkmobile on a track day (which would probably mean LS for value for money). Very simple to make with very small/low cost improvements over previous models. Maybe an option for I6 engine for those who aren't power obsessed. Is it feasible to sell a "car with a V8" and do an engine swap to a I6 even before the V8 has ever been fired up? (paperwork, cough?)
OR
Something with a CF body and exotic engine (lower cost UK made front engined Zonda). But then there would be the problem of conflict with the original engine makers cars. So maybe a modded s/c Jag engine would be (in theory) the most suitable option there.
Noble have been able to build off the heritage of a series of fantastically handling and progressively more expensive cars.
For TVR they showed they could push the price point to £50k+ but also knew they were struggling as they looked for savings everywhere they could to keep the price down. Some could argue that it was the brand image that held it back but personally it was the decision to not move with the whole of society and fit what have become standard safety features for almost every car sold in the UK.
Can TVR go the low volume track car route? No. It has no history of being a serious track car, in fact, quite the opposite. There isn't anything to build on there.
Can they go uber up market like Noble? I'd be surprised, I don't feel the brand could carry it off.
So, I think they are left with the sector they last operated in but vital to include the basic modern safety features where possible. Teaming up with a global firm for engines and also these safety features is probably the only workable solution for a volume production.
I believe that the key to any resurrection is to first establish which group of people have the disposable income at your price point and then to build the car to fit that group. To just build and hope to find esoteric buyers in consistent numbers is lethal.
When you look at the people with the space for a second car, the cash to buy one etc you are kind of left with two core groups. Early retirees and professionals.
What we do know about the early retirees is that they were the group that slammed up Chim vols in the 90s but then dumped them like a diseased hooker when manufacturers with superior brand image and all mod cons hit the market. I wouldn't build a business such as this around this group as they don't really want the product.
I think this leaves the over 30 professional market as your essential demographic. Now, its a case of looking at their lifestyles and asking what product they would desire. It's at this point that the LS argument falls out the window. This is a group which drives German or JLR products, a group for which 'kudus' and 'social image' are very important whether they realise it or not. Any TVR needs to be able to drive into a club car park or work event and hold its own image wise against everyone elses' Porsche or Audi product. As soon as you fit an LS you completely alienate the only group in British society who genuinely have the cash to lob at a toy. Use a drive train from a firm which has this perceived kudos and you can get away with missing a few mod cons out.
I do think that the Morgan model is the right one but while Morgan trades off an image of old school driving, I think TVR has always been a company that looks forward on the styling front and probably should continue to do so. Carve out a niche with the Morgan model but cater for the larger number of people who don't want those hugely retro looks
TVR are not Morgan, and should never try to emulate that brand or pursue its customers. Morgan to many is definitely too far on the retro side, and has only recently started bringing out some more modern type vehicles, but firmly with the focus on retro. TVR should not be doing that.
Blown2CV said:
TVR are not Morgan, and should never try to emulate that brand or pursue its customers. Morgan to many is definitely too far on the retro side, and has only recently started bringing out some more modern type vehicles, but firmly with the focus on retro. TVR should not be doing that.
Erm, I think it's more the scale/price equation side for the production of essetially handbuilt cars with a bit more content in terms of drivetrains/chassis/suspension and brakes/trim than the usual kit car fare... not one has said they should emulate Morgan in the retro stakes. That would only work if there was one single iconic TVR shape to build on/return to... 900T-R said:
Blown2CV said:
TVR are not Morgan, and should never try to emulate that brand or pursue its customers. Morgan to many is definitely too far on the retro side, and has only recently started bringing out some more modern type vehicles, but firmly with the focus on retro. TVR should not be doing that.
Erm, I think it's more the scale/price equation side for the production of essetially handbuilt cars with a bit more content in terms of drivetrains/chassis/suspension and brakes/trim than the usual kit car fare... not one has said they should emulate Morgan in the retro stakes. That would only work if there was one single iconic TVR shape to build on/return to... Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff