RE: Porsche 911 GT3 (991): Review
Discussion
German said:
ali_khl said:
Gentlemen, the driving reason why Porsche dropped the manual for the GT3 is - China.
No manual transmission cars have been homologated by them for the market there, and furthermore, these are less than 5 997 GT3s in the whole country because Chinese view stick-shifts as being only for trucks/ econo-cars.
The Chinese market is the biggest growing for Porsche, and is the most important now in the world. Porsche has since some time decided to cater to Chinese buyers, 95% of whom rate the electronic toys Chris spoke about in the video, and features such as PDK, as much more important than driving purity.
The above is the reason that Lotus, despite a significant investment in setting up dealerships in the most glamorous and expensive parts of town in Beijing and Shanghai, has sold less than 5 cars in each city since they started 2 years ago.
This is the same reason why the 918 is configured as it is with the electric motor, which is a lot more convenient for rich Chinese to drive around Sanlitun and Nanjing road at 10 mph than the hardcore Carerra GT.
The GT3 will sell like hotcakes here now, just as the GTR has for the same reasons.
Same at BMW, as a market European enthusiasts rate a 0 on the importance scale. Its sad, and it means regardless of income I will never buy a new car from a major company. My money will go to a Lotus/Catherham/TVR, or to private individual with good taste No manual transmission cars have been homologated by them for the market there, and furthermore, these are less than 5 997 GT3s in the whole country because Chinese view stick-shifts as being only for trucks/ econo-cars.
The Chinese market is the biggest growing for Porsche, and is the most important now in the world. Porsche has since some time decided to cater to Chinese buyers, 95% of whom rate the electronic toys Chris spoke about in the video, and features such as PDK, as much more important than driving purity.
The above is the reason that Lotus, despite a significant investment in setting up dealerships in the most glamorous and expensive parts of town in Beijing and Shanghai, has sold less than 5 cars in each city since they started 2 years ago.
This is the same reason why the 918 is configured as it is with the electric motor, which is a lot more convenient for rich Chinese to drive around Sanlitun and Nanjing road at 10 mph than the hardcore Carerra GT.
The GT3 will sell like hotcakes here now, just as the GTR has for the same reasons.
Unfortunately for that reason alone it means you won't see a manual RS version if this car, never mind the fact that they won't release an RS that would be slower in all measurable ways than the standard car.
End if an era.
Looks like a great bit of kit.
Times are changing and I think it would have been silly, if not impossible, for Porsche to have made this and subsequent GT3's without the option of the PDK transmission. I'm sure the sales figures of all their models will show this and I think you would be a fool to ignore the majority of your customer base. BUT to drop the manual option all together seems rather ruthless and preemptive. I would have probably expected them to offer the manual, see the sales figures and decide if enough were sold to justify it being an option for the future or not. Let the customers make the decision and modulate development from there. On the flip side, this is the more cost effective way of product development (not having to develop 2 gearboxes, software, chassis, etc.), but probably not the most egalitarian way. At least they could prove either way outright whether the PDK only option was the way to go.
Ferrari did it and offered manuals up to the point that their automated shifters were selling 10 to 1 or more, their customers had spoken and they made decisions based on that. That way no one can really argue. They don't seem to have a problem with the switch...
Anyway, I suspect this is going to be an exceptional machine and can't wait to give it a go.
Times are changing and I think it would have been silly, if not impossible, for Porsche to have made this and subsequent GT3's without the option of the PDK transmission. I'm sure the sales figures of all their models will show this and I think you would be a fool to ignore the majority of your customer base. BUT to drop the manual option all together seems rather ruthless and preemptive. I would have probably expected them to offer the manual, see the sales figures and decide if enough were sold to justify it being an option for the future or not. Let the customers make the decision and modulate development from there. On the flip side, this is the more cost effective way of product development (not having to develop 2 gearboxes, software, chassis, etc.), but probably not the most egalitarian way. At least they could prove either way outright whether the PDK only option was the way to go.
Ferrari did it and offered manuals up to the point that their automated shifters were selling 10 to 1 or more, their customers had spoken and they made decisions based on that. That way no one can really argue. They don't seem to have a problem with the switch...
Anyway, I suspect this is going to be an exceptional machine and can't wait to give it a go.
When reviews of the GT3 centre mainly the engine and gearbox, I don't know why, but I feel like the cars character have been been missed and diluted.
I get to drive an M6 (v10) and Masser GT on a regular basis, and my daily is no straight line slouch - however they don't really interest me in actual driving pleasure. At all.
My Mx5 and 996 C2 do, however.
I could be totally wrong, I feel like Porsche have fallen for the power and lap time chart on this car - yes it is a GT3 and that's its aim I guess, what else would they do making a new car?
Would have been nice to see Porsche (GT division), do an "M division" as per Z4. Proper steering and gearbox- and sell the driving pleasure as per GT86/BRZ.
It's a bit "meh" for me - no doubt its brutally quick, but I guess the turbo will be quicker still in a straight line.
Then again, what do I know - guess this is not era for GT3's, and the time has passed....
I get to drive an M6 (v10) and Masser GT on a regular basis, and my daily is no straight line slouch - however they don't really interest me in actual driving pleasure. At all.
My Mx5 and 996 C2 do, however.
I could be totally wrong, I feel like Porsche have fallen for the power and lap time chart on this car - yes it is a GT3 and that's its aim I guess, what else would they do making a new car?
Would have been nice to see Porsche (GT division), do an "M division" as per Z4. Proper steering and gearbox- and sell the driving pleasure as per GT86/BRZ.
It's a bit "meh" for me - no doubt its brutally quick, but I guess the turbo will be quicker still in a straight line.
Then again, what do I know - guess this is not era for GT3's, and the time has passed....
ali_khl said:
Gentlemen, the driving reason why Porsche dropped the manual for the GT3 is - China.
No manual transmission cars have been homologated by them for the market there, and furthermore, these are less than 5 997 GT3s in the whole country because Chinese view stick-shifts as being only for trucks/ econo-cars.
The Chinese market is the biggest growing for Porsche, and is the most important now in the world. Porsche has since some time decided to cater to Chinese buyers, 95% of whom rate the electronic toys Chris spoke about in the video, and features such as PDK, as much more important than driving purity.
The above is the reason that Lotus, despite a significant investment in setting up dealerships in the most glamorous and expensive parts of town in Beijing and Shanghai, has sold less than 5 cars in each city since they started 2 years ago.
This is the same reason why the 918 is configured as it is with the electric motor, which is a lot more convenient for rich Chinese to drive around Sanlitun and Nanjing road at 10 mph than the hardcore Carerra GT.
The GT3 will sell like hotcakes here now, just as the GTR has for the same reasons.
Well, this will only explain why this GT3 has a double clutch. But, it doesn't why it does not have a traditional clutch pedal as an option. No manual transmission cars have been homologated by them for the market there, and furthermore, these are less than 5 997 GT3s in the whole country because Chinese view stick-shifts as being only for trucks/ econo-cars.
The Chinese market is the biggest growing for Porsche, and is the most important now in the world. Porsche has since some time decided to cater to Chinese buyers, 95% of whom rate the electronic toys Chris spoke about in the video, and features such as PDK, as much more important than driving purity.
The above is the reason that Lotus, despite a significant investment in setting up dealerships in the most glamorous and expensive parts of town in Beijing and Shanghai, has sold less than 5 cars in each city since they started 2 years ago.
This is the same reason why the 918 is configured as it is with the electric motor, which is a lot more convenient for rich Chinese to drive around Sanlitun and Nanjing road at 10 mph than the hardcore Carerra GT.
The GT3 will sell like hotcakes here now, just as the GTR has for the same reasons.
Cost shouldn't be an issue, either, since the original buyers would still like to purchase normal manual gear box. Most double clutch buyer are from the new costumers. So, if they could make three-pedal 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 cost effective. Surely, they won't lose any money by putting manual gear box in the new 991 GT3. Of couse, the double clutch version will simply bring in more money for Porsche.
Mermaid said:
daveco said:
German mag posted a 7:36 time in an article against the GT3 of the same vintage. Not sure what they were running but AFAIK both were stock.
6GT3 or the RS? Link please. Thanks. Rather surprising times IMO.http://www.m3csl.de/misc_csl_supertest.php
Can I just congratulate Chris on his review of this important car.
I think I am in the same place as Chris in terms of what to think about it.
Objectively, it looks fantastic, sounds fantastic and it clearly goes very well indeed.
And yet, and yet.... it is taking Porsche down a road where technology is assisting the driving process. Porsches now have PDK gearboxes, torque vectoring, even 4 wheel steering.
There was a moment in the video where Chris described the feeling of the 4WS and how it did'nt feel like it was there, he just naturally unwound the turn of the wheel and he was away.
A much younger Chris Harris said exactly the same thing when testing a car a few years ago. The car was a Nissan GT-R and it was 2008.
Where is Porsche going with this?
I think I am in the same place as Chris in terms of what to think about it.
Objectively, it looks fantastic, sounds fantastic and it clearly goes very well indeed.
And yet, and yet.... it is taking Porsche down a road where technology is assisting the driving process. Porsches now have PDK gearboxes, torque vectoring, even 4 wheel steering.
There was a moment in the video where Chris described the feeling of the 4WS and how it did'nt feel like it was there, he just naturally unwound the turn of the wheel and he was away.
A much younger Chris Harris said exactly the same thing when testing a car a few years ago. The car was a Nissan GT-R and it was 2008.
Where is Porsche going with this?
daveco said:
Mermaid said:
daveco said:
German mag posted a 7:36 time in an article against the GT3 of the same vintage. Not sure what they were running but AFAIK both were stock.
6GT3 or the RS? Link please. Thanks. Rather surprising times IMO.http://www.m3csl.de/misc_csl_supertest.php
RichardD said:
Using every trick possible to get the best laptimes from a naturally aspirated rear mounted straight six engined two wheel drive sportscar ?
Only as a means to an end; they're underlying goal is "making the biggest profit they can". Hard to fault them for that, really. ?I wonder if the 992 (or whatever it's called) will bother with a N/A engine at all?
Agree with most of what has been said, moves it towards the GTR (great car but not something I would have in my dream garage as a fun drivers car) instead of further away and given the cash I would have a 997 GT3 over this one if spending my own money.
911 was always supposed to be something you didn't jump in and drive hard but hard to learn how to get the best from it, the latest versions seem to have removed the essence of what they were and make them compete purely on figures, interior and looks with the likes of the R8, GTR etc. No longer has a direct link to the race machines and no longer the benchmark for engineering integrity and quality.
911 was always supposed to be something you didn't jump in and drive hard but hard to learn how to get the best from it, the latest versions seem to have removed the essence of what they were and make them compete purely on figures, interior and looks with the likes of the R8, GTR etc. No longer has a direct link to the race machines and no longer the benchmark for engineering integrity and quality.
kambites said:
Only as a means to an end; they're underlying goal is "making the biggest profit they can". Hard to fault them for that, really.
I wonder if the 992 (or whatever it's called) will bother with a N/A engine at all?
Profit - of course and one of the reasons they do it so well is their (slow) evolution strategy.I wonder if the 992 (or whatever it's called) will bother with a N/A engine at all?
Also I wonder how close they are to the the limits of development with the engine? The rpm range of the GT3 has to be one of the big selling points, but I suppose a smaller engine could rev just as high or higher whilst having forced induction too. But who would pay similar (or more money) for less cylinders?
I think it looks absolutely STORMING! Love the noise.
Weird conversation everyone is having about the gearbox. It is, according to all reports, sensational. It also allows normal people to feel like a racing god. I would guess that more than half the people on here criticising the fact that it's not a manual either can't afford the car in the first place so knocking it is ridiculous, or even if it was available in manual they wouldn't have the skills to drive it to the limit or as close to the limit as you can with the PDK. I include myself in both these statements.
Weird conversation everyone is having about the gearbox. It is, according to all reports, sensational. It also allows normal people to feel like a racing god. I would guess that more than half the people on here criticising the fact that it's not a manual either can't afford the car in the first place so knocking it is ridiculous, or even if it was available in manual they wouldn't have the skills to drive it to the limit or as close to the limit as you can with the PDK. I include myself in both these statements.
Mermaid said:
daveco said:
Mermaid said:
daveco said:
German mag posted a 7:36 time in an article against the GT3 of the same vintage. Not sure what they were running but AFAIK both were stock.
6GT3 or the RS? Link please. Thanks. Rather surprising times IMO.http://www.m3csl.de/misc_csl_supertest.php
Once upon a time, you hand to hand crank a car. Once upon a time, you had to wind your own windows. Once upon a time, there was no esp, no abs, etc etc etc.
New tech has sent things the way of the dodo; its called progress, and you'd be best advised not to waste your time b
hing about it.
If it really bothers you that much, build your own cars, offer a manual, and then proceed to go out of business as quickly as you started.
Exit stage left please.
Oh, and the GT3? Who cares. Its now just another variant out of, what, 20-25 models of 911. It just gets a bit boring seeing the same old basic shape from 50 years ago getting regurgitated like a VW enema year on year.
New tech has sent things the way of the dodo; its called progress, and you'd be best advised not to waste your time b
hing about it.If it really bothers you that much, build your own cars, offer a manual, and then proceed to go out of business as quickly as you started.
Exit stage left please.
Oh, and the GT3? Who cares. Its now just another variant out of, what, 20-25 models of 911. It just gets a bit boring seeing the same old basic shape from 50 years ago getting regurgitated like a VW enema year on year.
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