RE: Porsche 911 GT3 (991): Review
Discussion
loveice said:
ali_khl said:
Gentlemen, the driving reason why Porsche dropped the manual for the GT3 is - China.
No manual transmission cars have been homologated by them for the market there, and furthermore, these are less than 5 997 GT3s in the whole country because Chinese view stick-shifts as being only for trucks/ econo-cars.
The Chinese market is the biggest growing for Porsche, and is the most important now in the world. Porsche has since some time decided to cater to Chinese buyers, 95% of whom rate the electronic toys Chris spoke about in the video, and features such as PDK, as much more important than driving purity.
The above is the reason that Lotus, despite a significant investment in setting up dealerships in the most glamorous and expensive parts of town in Beijing and Shanghai, has sold less than 5 cars in each city since they started 2 years ago.
This is the same reason why the 918 is configured as it is with the electric motor, which is a lot more convenient for rich Chinese to drive around Sanlitun and Nanjing road at 10 mph than the hardcore Carerra GT.
The GT3 will sell like hotcakes here now, just as the GTR has for the same reasons.
Well, this will only explain why this GT3 has a double clutch. But, it doesn't why it does not have a traditional clutch pedal as an option. No manual transmission cars have been homologated by them for the market there, and furthermore, these are less than 5 997 GT3s in the whole country because Chinese view stick-shifts as being only for trucks/ econo-cars.
The Chinese market is the biggest growing for Porsche, and is the most important now in the world. Porsche has since some time decided to cater to Chinese buyers, 95% of whom rate the electronic toys Chris spoke about in the video, and features such as PDK, as much more important than driving purity.
The above is the reason that Lotus, despite a significant investment in setting up dealerships in the most glamorous and expensive parts of town in Beijing and Shanghai, has sold less than 5 cars in each city since they started 2 years ago.
This is the same reason why the 918 is configured as it is with the electric motor, which is a lot more convenient for rich Chinese to drive around Sanlitun and Nanjing road at 10 mph than the hardcore Carerra GT.
The GT3 will sell like hotcakes here now, just as the GTR has for the same reasons.
Cost shouldn't be an issue, either, since the original buyers would still like to purchase normal manual gear box. Most double clutch buyer are from the new costumers. So, if they could make three-pedal 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 cost effective. Surely, they won't lose any money by putting manual gear box in the new 991 GT3. Of couse, the double clutch version will simply bring in more money for Porsche.
As a matter of interest, what at the max speeds in gear? Are UK owners ever going to use 9000rpm in any gear beyond first without putting their license in jeopardy?
SS7
ItsJustARide said:
urban_alchemist said:
Chris's review made me very very sad. The bottom line is, now that the GT3 has gone PDK only, and the new V12 Vantage S is automated manual too, anyone who wants a really special car with a manual gearbox is s
t out of luck.
It's not just the end of an era, it's the end of choice. I WANT to shift gears on my own, AND I want a special car (more special than a boggo C2S)... seems that choice is no longer mine to make. This is a very, very sad day, no matter how good this car is.
If Porsche (and near-bankrupt Aston) have given up, there's no hope at all...
Perhaps the silver lining is that specialists like Noble and maybe the new TVR can build those cars and satisfy this demand. t out of luck.It's not just the end of an era, it's the end of choice. I WANT to shift gears on my own, AND I want a special car (more special than a boggo C2S)... seems that choice is no longer mine to make. This is a very, very sad day, no matter how good this car is.
If Porsche (and near-bankrupt Aston) have given up, there's no hope at all...
Gorbyrev said:
ItsJustARide said:
urban_alchemist said:
Chris's review made me very very sad. The bottom line is, now that the GT3 has gone PDK only, and the new V12 Vantage S is automated manual too, anyone who wants a really special car with a manual gearbox is st out of luck.
It's not just the end of an era, it's the end of choice. I WANT to shift gears on my own, AND I want a special car (more special than a boggo C2S)... seems that choice is no longer mine to make. This is a very, very sad day, no matter how good this car is.
If Porsche (and near-bankrupt Aston) have given up, there's no hope at all...
Perhaps the silver lining is that specialists like Noble and maybe the new TVR can build those cars and satisfy this demand. t out of luck.It's not just the end of an era, it's the end of choice. I WANT to shift gears on my own, AND I want a special car (more special than a boggo C2S)... seems that choice is no longer mine to make. This is a very, very sad day, no matter how good this car is.
If Porsche (and near-bankrupt Aston) have given up, there's no hope at all...
shoestring7 said:
I for one don't buy it. A PDK option would have given Porsche incremental sales in the Far East as you point out, but they sold a lot of manual GT3s to Europe and the US, so clearly there are purists around. There's little point in just selling lots of cars to rich Chinese and none to the rest of the world's enthusiasts. I'll go with the line Andreas Preuninger gave earlier this year, in back to back tests all of the Porsche guys preferred the PDK version.
As a matter of interest, what at the max speeds in gear? Are UK owners ever going to use 9000rpm in any gear beyond first without putting their license in jeopardy?
SS7
I suppose a the same discussion on the new BMW M4.As a matter of interest, what at the max speeds in gear? Are UK owners ever going to use 9000rpm in any gear beyond first without putting their license in jeopardy?
SS7
andyp03 said:
Afternoon fellow enthusiasts,
It is my contention that this car is not in fact a GT3. Before I am stoned for heresy, I would like to cite some experience. I’m fortunate enough to drive a 997.2 GT3 and a 981 Boxster S PDK, so I understand the manual vs. PDK debate. This however, has never been the real issue for me.
The GT3 has, until 991, always been positioned as a Porsche racing car with number plates: same engine, same lightweight design, same chassis…and personally that has always been the appeal. Engineering proven in racing means cutting edge precision and a certainty of performance under the most intense conditions. It won’t of course last forever, but as i’m not a racing driver I would never be able to break it, and that feels superb.
So given that the new 991 cup car has the old Metzger engine, a lightweight chassis and as far as I know steering from the front wheels only, the GT3 road car has no major engineering fundamentals in common with its track counterpart. It is that simple. Of course i hear and believe that the new car is every inch as good as the review, but a GT3 it is not.
Well, THAT was a thoughtful posting that explains better than criticizing a gearbox swap why this car, no matter how good a road car it may be, is the same as something "pur sang" as a racer with indicators and bumpers. It is my contention that this car is not in fact a GT3. Before I am stoned for heresy, I would like to cite some experience. I’m fortunate enough to drive a 997.2 GT3 and a 981 Boxster S PDK, so I understand the manual vs. PDK debate. This however, has never been the real issue for me.
The GT3 has, until 991, always been positioned as a Porsche racing car with number plates: same engine, same lightweight design, same chassis…and personally that has always been the appeal. Engineering proven in racing means cutting edge precision and a certainty of performance under the most intense conditions. It won’t of course last forever, but as i’m not a racing driver I would never be able to break it, and that feels superb.
So given that the new 991 cup car has the old Metzger engine, a lightweight chassis and as far as I know steering from the front wheels only, the GT3 road car has no major engineering fundamentals in common with its track counterpart. It is that simple. Of course i hear and believe that the new car is every inch as good as the review, but a GT3 it is not.
By logical extension of course, Porsche's relentless development means that their sports cars will always be developed from lessons learned from racing, and so the PDK is fitted to the new car exclusively. Those of us who cut our teeth with torsion bars, cable clutches that pivot from the floor, no shift gates, ring synchronizers, semi-trailing arms, lift throttle oversteer, and defrosters that don't work, don't really wish to see a return to those days.
Nor would we want Porsche as a company to be Germany's "Morgan," however admirably the latter fills its market niche. Germany is just not wired that way, as a culture or people. We may all be sad that the new car's designation really means little to what they race in that class now, right up to the point that they offer a bored-out RSR version with no sound deadening, a full cage, fuel cell, and carbon brakes and then all will be forgiven once more?
We should all simply be grateful that racing level performance can also be a decent all-rounder - and that idea harkens back to the formation of the company in the early 1950s!
Why not a seq gearbox? Even that would have been fun. Paddles feel like an x-box. I'm entitled as anyone to criticise this car, I've spent over the cost of a new GT3 on an old air-cooled souped-up hotrod for the simple reason that Porsche's new stuff doesn't do it for me (last GT3 excepted); and wish this car well but it's just a German Ferrari for non-enthusiasts, frankly I'd feel slightly embarrassed to be seen in one. If looking for a new sports car, I'd look to Noble or the forthcoming Alpine. Can't blame Porsche, they're a branch of VW these days and the ratio of show offs to enthusiasts is such that no manufacturer would wish to cater for enthusiasts, we don't matter, folks
tommy1973s said:
Why not a seq gearbox? Even that would have been fun. Paddles feel like an x-box. I'm entitled as anyone to criticise this car, I've spent over the cost of a new GT3 on an old air-cooled souped-up hotrod for the simple reason that Porsche's new stuff doesn't do it for me (last GT3 excepted); and wish this car well but it's just a German Ferrari for non-enthusiasts, frankly I'd feel slightly embarrassed to be seen in one. If looking for a new sports car, I'd look to Noble or the forthcoming Alpine. Can't blame Porsche, they're a branch of VW these days and the ratio of show offs to enthusiasts is such that no manufacturer would wish to cater for enthusiasts, we don't matter, folks
Thanks for the post - either way can't wait to "show off" in mine 
Why does the article say that sport mode is reserved for the track?! I presume that is just pointing out the harshness of the speed of the gear change on everyday driving?
On the pdk/manual debate, the biggest issue is a lack of choice, not the quality of the end result. Those wishing a manual so they can heel and toe are in a pretty small minority so if the commercials don't stack up to produce one, I can understand why. I always used to run a mile from an auto box due to the way they don't communicate exactly what you are trying to do and if I was buying a 90's Ferrari there is zero chance of me buying anything but manual. However, with the crispness of dual clutches, I think there is more thrill in knowing just how quick it is and the feel of that. It's different, and for someone to call it worse and critisise is just an opinion. Anyway, the 991 manual autoblips on downshift anyway.
On the pdk/manual debate, the biggest issue is a lack of choice, not the quality of the end result. Those wishing a manual so they can heel and toe are in a pretty small minority so if the commercials don't stack up to produce one, I can understand why. I always used to run a mile from an auto box due to the way they don't communicate exactly what you are trying to do and if I was buying a 90's Ferrari there is zero chance of me buying anything but manual. However, with the crispness of dual clutches, I think there is more thrill in knowing just how quick it is and the feel of that. It's different, and for someone to call it worse and critisise is just an opinion. Anyway, the 991 manual autoblips on downshift anyway.
JJMatrixx said:
Why does the article say that sport mode is reserved for the track?! I presume that is just pointing out the harshness of the speed of the gear change on everyday driving?
No. It's actually because on normal roads, if you were to attempt to second-guess the transmission, only one of two things would occur: You would be correct by making the same choice the transmission would have, or you'd be wrong and make a sub-optimal choice when the transmission would have selected the faster option.The PDK-S in the 991 GT3 is actually the 3rd generation of Porsche PDK (with the 918 Spyder being sort of a 3.5th generation with changes that are twice as fast). The car will do 6th to 3rd downshifts for you without hesitation (and with perfect rev-matching) and without your input in new 911s, Boxsters and Caymans -- Porsche isn't futzing around. From someone who's driven a few (and still has a great 6-speed in my DD), PDK is genuinely well done nowadays and is now reaching the point where no one can legitimately complain anymore.
Edited by Goofnik on Monday 17th June 06:06
Agree stick operated sequential manual would have been a much better idea.
The problem with paddleshifts is that as they get faster and more seamless there's less and less point in using the paddles. The GTR has a superb paddleshift box but I was left with the impression that the car is even faster and happier when left to do the shifting itself. All I was doing was introducing an element of human error. Using the paddles I could either shift too early or too late. The car was the master at shifting at the perfect point in the torque curve. Fiddling with paddles didn't seem to be adding anything to either the process of going fast or much in the way of driving pleasure.
I suspect the same will be true of the GT3. So great for pottering around London. Not so great for the roads you bought a GT3 for.
The problem with paddleshifts is that as they get faster and more seamless there's less and less point in using the paddles. The GTR has a superb paddleshift box but I was left with the impression that the car is even faster and happier when left to do the shifting itself. All I was doing was introducing an element of human error. Using the paddles I could either shift too early or too late. The car was the master at shifting at the perfect point in the torque curve. Fiddling with paddles didn't seem to be adding anything to either the process of going fast or much in the way of driving pleasure.
I suspect the same will be true of the GT3. So great for pottering around London. Not so great for the roads you bought a GT3 for.
Edited by The Pits on Monday 17th June 14:54
tommy1973s said:
Why not a seq gearbox? Even that would have been fun. Paddles feel like an x-box. I'm entitled as anyone to criticise this car, I've spent over the cost of a new GT3 on an old air-cooled souped-up hotrod for the simple reason that Porsche's new stuff doesn't do it for me (last GT3 excepted); and wish this car well but it's just a German Ferrari for non-enthusiasts, frankly I'd feel slightly embarrassed to be seen in one. If looking for a new sports car, I'd look to Noble or the forthcoming Alpine. Can't blame Porsche, they're a branch of VW these days and the ratio of show offs to enthusiasts is such that no manufacturer would wish to cater for enthusiasts, we don't matter, folks
It's possible to use the PDK shifter for up and down shifts instead of the paddles, if that floats your boat. I know the clutch is still missing but anyway, there you go...Maybe it will become if you want a manual Porsche you buy a Ruf, if you want a manual BMW you go to Weisman (though think they only do smg with the m5 engine) or Morgan.
Already seeing a lot more enthusiasts in older cars, turning their back on new sportscars with maybe an efficient euro box as a daily driver.
Already seeing a lot more enthusiasts in older cars, turning their back on new sportscars with maybe an efficient euro box as a daily driver.
Goofnik said:
PDK is genuinely well done nowadays and is now reaching the point where no one can legitimately complain anymore.
I would challenge that statement.Edited by Goofnik on Monday 17th June 06:06
I don't deny that PDK is faster, smoother and more efficient than any gear changes I could ever hope to achieve with any manual,
However, I like to shift manually. I like to heel & toe. Is that illegitimate ?
I don't argue that VW want to maximise the number of cars they sell and this is what a large part of the market want but I can still mourn the passing of the gt3 with a manual.
Why should a computer have all the fun of blipping the throttle on downshifts?
Also I can no longer choose to do a big blip or a small one, I only get what the computer allows.
The GT3 used to be Porsche's apology to enthusiasts for the Cayenne.
It seems like they don't mean it anymore.
Also I can no longer choose to do a big blip or a small one, I only get what the computer allows.
The GT3 used to be Porsche's apology to enthusiasts for the Cayenne.
It seems like they don't mean it anymore.
I own a 997 GT3.1 Clubsport which I enjoy on the road.
I will not be wanting a 991 GT3 due to no manual gearbox option, despite PDK being undeniably more accomplished.
I think both should be offered:
- PDK for ultimate track performance, on-paper marketing stats, and for road drivers who like having a computer heel-and-toe for them.
- Manual for road drivers for whom engagement and involvement in the art of driving are more important than ultimate performance.
I am a faithful Porsche client (I currently own 4 different Porsche 911's...) and if I reason this way then the chances are some others do too.
Ferrari had the right idea: offer both until the market comes to a landslide conclusion. Because you can't argue with the market... (I suspect the average GT3 buyer does not have the same priorities as the average modern Ferrari buyer, so it certainly isn't a foregone conclusion either...)
PS: Same for the M3: I own a 6-speed manual E92 V8 M3. The 7-speed DCT is much more accomplished, yet without the manual option I would simply not have bought an M3 at all...
I will not be wanting a 991 GT3 due to no manual gearbox option, despite PDK being undeniably more accomplished.
I think both should be offered:
- PDK for ultimate track performance, on-paper marketing stats, and for road drivers who like having a computer heel-and-toe for them.
- Manual for road drivers for whom engagement and involvement in the art of driving are more important than ultimate performance.
I am a faithful Porsche client (I currently own 4 different Porsche 911's...) and if I reason this way then the chances are some others do too.
Ferrari had the right idea: offer both until the market comes to a landslide conclusion. Because you can't argue with the market... (I suspect the average GT3 buyer does not have the same priorities as the average modern Ferrari buyer, so it certainly isn't a foregone conclusion either...)
PS: Same for the M3: I own a 6-speed manual E92 V8 M3. The 7-speed DCT is much more accomplished, yet without the manual option I would simply not have bought an M3 at all...
Edited by alexwagner on Tuesday 18th June 14:48
RSVP911 said:
RSVP911 said:
alexwagner said:
I own a 997 GT3.1 Clubsport which I enjoy on the road.
I will not be wanting a 991 GT3 due to no manual gearbox option, despite PDK being undeniably more accomplished.
I think both should be offered:
- PDK for ultimate track performance, on-paper marketing stats, and for road drivers who like having a computer heel-and-toe for them.
- Manual for road drivers for whom engagement and involvement in the art of driving are more important than ultimate performance.
I am a faithful Porsche client (I currently own 4 different Porsche 911's...) and if I reason this way then the chances are some others do too.
Ferrari had the right idea: offer both until the market comes to a landslide conclusion. Because you can't argue with the market... (I suspect the average GT3 buyer does not have the same priorities as the average modern Ferrari buyer, so it certainly isn't a foregone conclusion either...)
PS: Same for the M3: I own a 6-speed manual E92 V8 M3. The 7-speed DCT is much more accomplished, yet without the manual option I would simply not have bought an M3 at all...
I will not be wanting a 991 GT3 due to no manual gearbox option, despite PDK being undeniably more accomplished.
I think both should be offered:
- PDK for ultimate track performance, on-paper marketing stats, and for road drivers who like having a computer heel-and-toe for them.
- Manual for road drivers for whom engagement and involvement in the art of driving are more important than ultimate performance.
I am a faithful Porsche client (I currently own 4 different Porsche 911's...) and if I reason this way then the chances are some others do too.
Ferrari had the right idea: offer both until the market comes to a landslide conclusion. Because you can't argue with the market... (I suspect the average GT3 buyer does not have the same priorities as the average modern Ferrari buyer, so it certainly isn't a foregone conclusion either...)
PS: Same for the M3: I own a 6-speed manual E92 V8 M3. The 7-speed DCT is much more accomplished, yet without the manual option I would simply not have bought an M3 at all...
Edited by alexwagner on Tuesday 18th June 14:48
1. I love the ease of a PDK : before reading all these post I thought "heel and toe" was some form of tropical disease
And ....
2. I like the spoiler - simple as that
Sorry - looks like I'm the target market that Porsche are pandering to !!
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