Wednesday 26th June 2013

Ambition vs ability: PH Blog

With all that hot hatch heritage Peugeot missed the target; with none Kia has seemingly nailed it

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There's a huge amount of goodwill towards Peugeot superminis among a generation of drivers who grew up with 205s, 306s and 106s. From first car base models through GTIs and Rallyes, many of us took our first faltering footsteps onto - and occasionally backwards off - the roads in Peugeot's finest and they'll forever have a place in our hearts.

If you're playing the GTI card best do it right

Which makes the missed opportunity of the 208 GTI all the more frustrating. True, Peugeot was never going to be able to 'do a 205' for the modern era, no matter how much its marketing guys might try and tell us as much. Times, tastes, technology and attitudes have changed. It's done everything right though, giving the 208 GTI a smattering of motorsport credibility both in rallying and on track. It's even nicked Loeb to punt a vaguely 208-shaped vehicle up Pikes Peak to reinforce that link back to past glories and capitalise on the in-house marketing gold of having perhaps the most talented all-round driver of the last few decades on the payroll. Citroen - are you listening?

And yet with all that heritage, expertise and an audience raised on happy memories of its products the finished product has seemingly fallen short.

First time lucky for Kia's warm hatch upstart

Leaving the door wide open for Kia, with zero hot hatch heritage, to march right in and apparently nail it on the first go. Given how vulnerable Peugeot's traditional European markets are to the Korean onslaught on all fronts you'd have to say that was a bit daft.

That generation, raised with fond memories of Peugeot superminis, won't be far off buying first cars for their offspring. Kia might not have that heritage but with the impressive Pro_Cee'd GT in the same showroom as base Picantos and Rios and the like with big warranties and other attractions who's to say parents won't be tempted to start a new generation of drivers aspiring to a new range of spicy Korean delights. Over the pond Kia races Rios in the fun-looking B-Spec hot hatch series, which puts near-stock cars on the track and offers just a hint of competitive gloss to otherwise humdrum hatches the French always did so well. And sister brand Hyundai is gearing up for a full-on WRC campaign too.

Hot hatch B-Spec racers liven up Kia's image

Kia's first step into the hot hatch fray has been a conservative one. Let's hope it gives Peugeot the boot up the derriere it needs to start building cars worthy of that golden era. Whether it's by keeping it affordable and unpretentious like the Fiesta ST or grasping the technological nettle and forcing through the new age hot hatch agenda like Renault it needs to do something, be it a stripped back and stickered N24 tribute or bonkers Pikes Peak edition with daft wing and monster power boost.

Dan

 

 

 

[JonathanLegard]

Is this more a question of heritage and expectation?

If you back to back tested the Kia and the Peugeot and assessed them purely on the respective vehicle's abilities, I suspect that the verdict wouldn't appear quite so harsh on the French car.

[Dan Trent]

We should probably do just that! Watch this space...

Dan

[Froomee]

JonathanLegard said:

Is this more a question of heritage and expectation?

If you back to back tested the Kia and the Peugeot and assessed them purely on the respective vehicle's abilities, I suspect that the verdict wouldn't appear quite so harsh on the French car.

Agreed, i imagine the expectation is greater from the established manufacturers or at least from my perspective it is.

Im not sure what discounts are available on this car but the new Focus ST is currently available brand new for considerably cheaper than the list price of the Kia.

Comparing this car with the smaller hatches in particular the Fiesta ST is unfair as the price difference (£15.5k new for the Fiesta on Drive the deal) is pretty big and they are a lot different in terms of size.

Edited by Froomee on Wednesday 26th June 15:50

[Shadows]

Froomee said:

Agreed, i imagine the expectation is greater from the established manufacturers or at least from my perspective it is.

Im not sure what discounts are available on this car but the new Focus ST is currently available brand new for considerably cheaper than the list price of the Kia.

Comparing this car with the smaller hatches in particular the Fiesta ST is unfair as the price difference (£15.5k new for the Fiesta on Drive the deal) is pretty big and they are a lot different in terms of size.

Edited by Froomee on Wednesday 26th June 15:50

Agree with that, buy a new Focus ST-2 for a smidge under 20K:

http://www.fordretailonline.co.uk/new/ford/focus-s...

When comparing the two side by side, the Kia doesn't quite look as much of a tempting proposition.

Dan you need to do a Focus ST vs. Kia GT.

BTW when's the Hyundai Genesis coming to the UK?

[Baryonyx]

I doubt anyone in 20 years time will be talking about the 208 GTi with the reverence reserved for the 205 GTi, the 106 Rallyes or the 106/306 GTi. It's undoubtedly the best car Peugeot have made in years and I hope it is the start of their route back to glory.

Similarly, as competent as the Koreans are becoming, I doubt they'll ever be spoken of with the revered tones reserved for the truly great hot hatches.

[Froomee]

Shadows said:

Froomee said:

Agreed, i imagine the expectation is greater from the established manufacturers or at least from my perspective it is.

Im not sure what discounts are available on this car but the new Focus ST is currently available brand new for considerably cheaper than the list price of the Kia.

Comparing this car with the smaller hatches in particular the Fiesta ST is unfair as the price difference (£15.5k new for the Fiesta on Drive the deal) is pretty big and they are a lot different in terms of size.

Edited by Froomee on Wednesday 26th June 15:50

Agree with that, buy a new Focus ST-2 for a smidge under 20K:

http://www.fordretailonline.co.uk/new/ford/focus-s...

When comparing the two side by side, the Kia doesn't quite look as much of a tempting proposition.

Dan you need to do a Focus ST vs. Kia GT.

BTW when's the Hyundai Genesis coming to the UK?

Depending on finance options and more importantly GMFV and residuals the Focus may end up the cheaper car to run.

With no haggling a £1500 deposit and £315ish payment for 24 months on the Focus seems reasonable plus you will get anything the car is worth over £12.2k back come resale, seems fairly cheap to me.

[real4star]

Even I'm not sure where I'm going with this (Half formed) thought, but isn't this Pug GTI thing very similar to the Renault Gordini, Fiat Abarth and (taken to extremes) Ferrari GTO... taking iconic badge and using the image to sell hotter versions of a product that has little or nothing in common with the original.

The 208 IIRC was meant to be a step towards a premium hatchback... the 205 was just hatchback.

Now if they took a 208 and lost all the luxuries (except the radio) and lost weight by fitting lighter seats, thinner carpets, less sound proofing etc... it would loose its 'premium feel' but wouldn't that make it more like a proper GTI?

[Shadows]

Froomee said:

Depending on finance options and more importantly GMFV and residuals the Focus may end up the cheaper car to run.

With no haggling a £1500 deposit and £315ish payment for 24 months on the Focus seems reasonable plus you will get anything the car is worth over £12.2k back come resale, seems fairly cheap to me.

I'm surprised there so rare at that price, that's a lot of car for your money. I was gutted to find out the Recaro's hurt my ribs or I'd of thrown my money at them.

Also can't forget the Mountune upgrade that doesn't invalidate a warranty.. I'm sure I read it will be reaching around 285 - 300 HP (Dependant on what packages they bring out it could be even faster), then your nearly knocking at the door's of a 135I in terms of performance.

Edited by Shadows on Wednesday 26th June 17:07

[TobesH]

Hot hatches = Ford when it comes to the balance of pace, practicality and affordability, plus whether you are a Fordy or not, there is no denying Ford's heritage as a performance car brand.

Hence at the moment Ford seems to have it sewn up with the excellent Focus and now the new Fiesta, which I simply have to have a go in

[TobesH]

PS shouldn't have sold my '09 RS Focus. I'd have top pay now for it what I sold it for back in 2010!!!

[jason61c]

Froomee said:

Shadows said:

Froomee said:

Agreed, i imagine the expectation is greater from the established manufacturers or at least from my perspective it is.

Im not sure what discounts are available on this car but the new Focus ST is currently available brand new for considerably cheaper than the list price of the Kia.

Comparing this car with the smaller hatches in particular the Fiesta ST is unfair as the price difference (£15.5k new for the Fiesta on Drive the deal) is pretty big and they are a lot different in terms of size.

Edited by Froomee on Wednesday 26th June 15:50

Agree with that, buy a new Focus ST-2 for a smidge under 20K:

http://www.fordretailonline.co.uk/new/ford/focus-s...

When comparing the two side by side, the Kia doesn't quite look as much of a tempting proposition.

Dan you need to do a Focus ST vs. Kia GT.

BTW when's the Hyundai Genesis coming to the UK?

Depending on finance options and more importantly GMFV and residuals the Focus may end up the cheaper car to run.

With no haggling a £1500 deposit and £315ish payment for 24 months on the Focus seems reasonable plus you will get anything the car is worth over £12.2k back come resale, seems fairly cheap to me.

Would someone really pay over £300 a month and/or £9k to rent a focus for 2 years? That just seems bonkers to me.

[Froomee]

More than likely nearer to £7k Ish I'd imagine as the car will probably be worth more than £12k on trade in.

All things considered £300 p/m Ish for two years ain't too bad, costs other than fuel and insurance (tyres should last around two years if swapped, one service and a years tax).

I would say the Kia would be very close in terms of total ownership costs.......

ETA: I don't think the Kia is a viable alternative as it isn't a better car and isn't cheaper. I'd happily be proved otherwise but I doubt it.

Edited by Froomee on Wednesday 26th June 23:14

[Shadows]

jason61c said:

Would someone really pay over £300 a month and/or £9k to rent a focus for 2 years? That just seems bonkers to me.

Well the price + 4K deposit is £211.00 a month, but yeah it is kinda bonkers I suppose. But the Kia may end up costing more? Would you pay even more for a lesser powered Kia?

[Andy ap]

This thread seems to be going off topic, but I think the argument lies with should we be pinning our hopes on a manufacturers heritage even if they seem to of lost their way and their principles. Even if its more a case of the market is calling for different things now and so if a new car maker can come along with a clean sheet and make a name for itself then fine.

I think the biggest question now in this day and age is who are going to be the pioneers of the Kia following? and I don't imagine they are going to be someone that would care two hoots about brand reputation, heritage and history/nostalgia. I imagine it will be bought just as much by women and families as well as the intended young single(ish) people that were the target market of the original GTi's. I reckon the Pro_Cee'd Gt has almost as much chance of being a success as the resurrected mini and 500. Although a 20k asking price does seem a little steep, they trying some exclusivity thing there?

Edited by Andy ap on Wednesday 26th June 22:11

[V8RX7]

TobesH said:

Hot hatches = Ford when it comes to the balance of pace, practicality and affordability, plus whether you are a Fordy or not, there is no denying Ford's heritage as a performance car brand.

Not to me it doesn't.

Ford's greatest cars
GT40
Mk1 & 2 Escort
Sierra Cosworth

For the best Hot hatches I think:

VW Golf I & II
205 / 309 Gti
Astra GTE 16v (I know I'm in a minority with that one)

I can't think of a single Ford Hot Hatch that was the best in it's class.

[MonkeySpanker]

V8RX7 said:

Not to me it doesn't.

Ford's greatest cars
GT40
Mk1 & 2 Escort
Sierra Cosworth

For the best Hot hatches I think:

VW Golf I & II
205 / 309 Gti
Astra GTE 16v (I know I'm in a minority with that one)

I can't think of a single Ford Hot Hatch that was the best in it's class.

Of course opinions are just that, opinions. The Escort Cosworth, RS Turbo or even RS1600i seem to have slipped your mind? I might go with the Astra GTE or maybe a GSi though, under-rated cars. How about the MG Maestro Turbo?

[V8RX7]

MonkeySpanker said:

V8RX7 said:

Not to me it doesn't.

Ford's greatest cars
GT40
Mk1 & 2 Escort
Sierra Cosworth

For the best Hot hatches I think:

VW Golf I & II
205 / 309 Gti
Astra GTE 16v (I know I'm in a minority with that one)

I can't think of a single Ford Hot Hatch that was the best in it's class.

Of course opinions are just that, opinions. The Escort Cosworth, RS Turbo or even RS1600i seem to have slipped your mind? I might go with the Astra GTE or maybe a GSi though, under-rated cars. How about the MG Maestro Turbo?

Escort Cosworth wasn't a hot hatch - it was a direct competitor with Evo / Scooby - IMO the Evo is the far better car.

RS Turbo was a complete POS - murdered by the Astra

RS1600i - again I'd rather have the Astra - Mk1 in this case or the Golf.

[Lowtimer]

V8RX7 said:

Escort Cosworth wasn't a hot hatch - it was a direct competitor with Evo / Scooby - IMO the Evo is the far better car.

RS Turbo was a complete POS - murdered by the Astra

RS1600i - again I'd rather have the Astra - Mk1 in this case or the Golf.

I have to agree with all of that.
Ford's made some good FWD cars, especially the Mark I Focus and Mondeo which were class-leaders at the time, but class leaders as family cars, not as hot hatches.

The heyday of the performance Ford is the RWD era.

Coming back to the original piece:
"Peugeot was never going to be able to 'do a 205' for the modern era, no matter how much its marketing guys might try and tell us as much. Times, tastes, technology and attitudes have changed."

This is seriously letting them off the hook, even if you counted in the biggie that you missed, which is legislation / regulation. There is nothing whatsoever impossible about making a small sporty hatchback that feels like the real thing, as Suzuki is proving with the new Swift Sport. *That* is the 21st Century 205GTI.

Edited by Lowtimer on Thursday 27th June 08:55

Edited by Lowtimer on Thursday 27th June 08:58

[Agoogy]

Nice image...
make a street legal-road going version, that looks like this ffs...!

[Andy ap]

Having driven neither car i cant really pass judgment but it would seem to me that the ambition vs ability in this argument is actually the wrong way round. It strikes me that its the peugeot with the ambition (in trying to desperately claw back some of the badges kudo's) yet i don't think it will succeed.

It seems to me that the car with ability is actually the KIA, its got a clean sheet and only a future ahead of it to make of it what it will. Not only that for a first attempt in the quick car market judging by this article it seems to be a very well rounded package. If KIA upped they're motor-sport campaign over here a little more it would promote it nicely as thats what primarily boosts all hot hatch sales.