RE: BMW i3 prices confirmed
Discussion
Ah the heater problem
in other words "The how do i solve the issue of my car not pissing energy out of my expensive fuel all over the place"
In a pure electric car then its an issue as we are used to getting this "free" waste heat
But Volvo have solved it by fitting a small ethanol fired heater
in other words "The how do i solve the issue of my car not pissing energy out of my expensive fuel all over the place"
In a pure electric car then its an issue as we are used to getting this "free" waste heat
But Volvo have solved it by fitting a small ethanol fired heater
...and the Zoe uses a heat pump, which is basically the air conditioning unit running backwards. It is this sort of innovation that I love to see!
Also, the Zoe can be programmed to warm itself up from the charging point before you get in to the car - so you get into a nice warm car, and all the car's own heater has to do it maintain the temperature. Again, great use of tech.
The performance of the BMW looks great, but I would still go for the Zoe - much better looks, and the battery leasing deal is IMO the way forwards (think of the batteries as fuel rather than part of the car).
That is by far the best interior I have seen in a BMW for a very long time BTW, really stylish and not drab and cheap looking like most of the current range. I hope the design language finds its way into other models in the range....
Cheers,
Jerry
Also, the Zoe can be programmed to warm itself up from the charging point before you get in to the car - so you get into a nice warm car, and all the car's own heater has to do it maintain the temperature. Again, great use of tech.
The performance of the BMW looks great, but I would still go for the Zoe - much better looks, and the battery leasing deal is IMO the way forwards (think of the batteries as fuel rather than part of the car).
That is by far the best interior I have seen in a BMW for a very long time BTW, really stylish and not drab and cheap looking like most of the current range. I hope the design language finds its way into other models in the range....
Cheers,
Jerry
McWigglebum4th said:
Ah the heater problem
in other words "The how do i solve the issue of my car not pissing energy out of my expensive fuel all over the place"
In a pure electric car then its an issue as we are used to getting this "free" waste heat
In some scenarios this is most welcome!in other words "The how do i solve the issue of my car not pissing energy out of my expensive fuel all over the place"
In a pure electric car then its an issue as we are used to getting this "free" waste heat
I’m not some petrol loving luddite who hates the idea of electric cars. Personally I love the idea; I built an electric bike when I was a kid using a 9.4v cordless drill (and foresaw some of the issues back then! 1 mile range if I was lucky and I could barely pedal it home
) I just don’t think that in their current form they are anything more than an expensive, incredibly niche technical showcase suited to a very restrictive usage pattern.Of course there are solutions to the heater problem. Many high end high efficiency diesels currently come equipped with a Webasto fuel burning auxiliary heater for cold morning starts – you can pick one up for cheap on Ebay if you want a play. It would also make sense for the car to pre-warm itself while plugged in so long as the batteries had charged to a certain level.
We are talking specifically about the i3 though, which I don’t believe has such a feature. And I think potential buyers should be aware that a compromise in areas such as this will be required on their part.
My main criticism of the current crop of electric cars is still the energy storage medium; Battery technology is just not mature enough imo and short of some unforeseen breakthrough will not develop at any substantial rate.
My vision of the future: in the medium term development of small capacity high-efficiency fossil fuelled powered cars with electric assistance will continue and will reign supreme, until the day that a medium for energy transfer approaching the density of fossil fuels is adopted for use in electric cars.
Hydrogen is currently looking to be the most likely.
Aaron W said:
my bentley gt supersport is better than the crap electric thing here
You need to update your profile.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/profile.asp?mem...
jerrytlr said:
...and the Zoe uses a heat pump, which is basically the air conditioning unit running backwards. It is this sort of innovation that I love to see!
Also, the Zoe can be programmed to warm itself up from the charging point before you get in to the car - so you get into a nice warm car, and all the car's own heater has to do it maintain the temperature. Again, great use of tech.
The performance of the BMW looks great, but I would still go for the Zoe - much better looks, and the battery leasing deal is IMO the way forwards (think of the batteries as fuel rather than part of the car).
That is by far the best interior I have seen in a BMW for a very long time BTW, really stylish and not drab and cheap looking like most of the current range. I hope the design language finds its way into other models in the range....
Cheers,
Jerry
I think the i3 also uses a heat pump and will have a similar app to allow remote/timer setting of cabin temperature, de-misting etc. They also seem to be doing something clever using the aircon refrigerant to control battery temperature.Also, the Zoe can be programmed to warm itself up from the charging point before you get in to the car - so you get into a nice warm car, and all the car's own heater has to do it maintain the temperature. Again, great use of tech.
The performance of the BMW looks great, but I would still go for the Zoe - much better looks, and the battery leasing deal is IMO the way forwards (think of the batteries as fuel rather than part of the car).
That is by far the best interior I have seen in a BMW for a very long time BTW, really stylish and not drab and cheap looking like most of the current range. I hope the design language finds its way into other models in the range....
Cheers,
Jerry
Agree with you about the interior - nice to see something German that doesn't revert to the default settings of 'coal hole' or 'tarts handbag ruched leather ghastlyness'.
DaveCWK said:
McWigglebum4th said:
Ah the heater problem
in other words "The how do i solve the issue of my car not pissing energy out of my expensive fuel all over the place"
In a pure electric car then its an issue as we are used to getting this "free" waste heat
In some scenarios this is most welcome!in other words "The how do i solve the issue of my car not pissing energy out of my expensive fuel all over the place"
In a pure electric car then its an issue as we are used to getting this "free" waste heat
I’m not some petrol loving luddite who hates the idea of electric cars. Personally I love the idea; I built an electric bike when I was a kid using a 9.4v cordless drill (and foresaw some of the issues back then! 1 mile range if I was lucky and I could barely pedal it home
) I just don’t think that in their current form they are anything more than an expensive, incredibly niche technical showcase suited to a very restrictive usage pattern.Of course there are solutions to the heater problem. Many high end high efficiency diesels currently come equipped with a Webasto fuel burning auxiliary heater for cold morning starts – you can pick one up for cheap on Ebay if you want a play. It would also make sense for the car to pre-warm itself while plugged in so long as the batteries had charged to a certain level.
We are talking specifically about the i3 though, which I don’t believe has such a feature. And I think potential buyers should be aware that a compromise in areas such as this will be required on their part.
My main criticism of the current crop of electric cars is still the energy storage medium; Battery technology is just not mature enough imo and short of some unforeseen breakthrough will not develop at any substantial rate.
My vision of the future: in the medium term development of small capacity high-efficiency fossil fuelled powered cars with electric assistance will continue and will reign supreme, until the day that a medium for energy transfer approaching the density of fossil fuels is adopted for use in electric cars.
Hydrogen is currently looking to be the most likely.
They can easily do 50miles a day on one charge
or 18,000 miles a year
10,000 more then the average fossil fuel car does in the UK based on the last set of figures i can find
V8A*ndy said:
Sorry if not already mentioned.
Does anyone know how much it might cost to charge from flat or how many units of electricity?
Still think it will be useless for winter use round my neck of the woods but I would be willing to be proved wrong.
22kwh battery capacity, elec is around 14p per kwh last time i looked, but maybe you could use economy 7 overnight?).. so approx 2 or 3 quid from empty.Does anyone know how much it might cost to charge from flat or how many units of electricity?
Still think it will be useless for winter use round my neck of the woods but I would be willing to be proved wrong.
Electric cars are becoming interesting. Out of curiosity I had an Ampera on three day hire and while I didn't like the space ship interior and it was ponderous in the corners, the instant and silent power was very compelling. I've honestly got back to my LCI 330d - an absolutely fabulous car with an astonishing engine - and wondered what on earth have we been doing for the last 50 years and why have we contented ourselves with refining a technology that at its heart is still such an agricultural lump.
I don't plan on changing the BM any time soon but the Ampera definitely left me thinking electric has a strong future.
I don't plan on changing the BM any time soon but the Ampera definitely left me thinking electric has a strong future.
biggles330d said:
why have we contented ourselves with refining a technology that at its heart is still such an agricultural lump.
But, by god we HAVE refined it! As your 330d proves.But i agree, the issue with the Ampera/Volt is the poor quality interior and wishywashy ride and handling, not the hybrid electrictickery !
Personally I am not a fan of this car, not in the market for a car like this anyway so I cant see that really effecting sales, Living the in wonder that is Bracknell I will no doubt see hundreds of the buggers soon enough so my opinion is always likely to change.
However I do like the idea, Yes the Electric SLS and things like that are great but its things that BMW & others can improve on from cars like the I3 that will translate into the toy PH type cars of the future.
However I do like the idea, Yes the Electric SLS and things like that are great but its things that BMW & others can improve on from cars like the I3 that will translate into the toy PH type cars of the future.
All this stuff about lithium, and how bad batteries are to make, expensive inputs, mining, transport etc... Tell me, surely once a battery is past it's useful life, the raw materials can be recycled into new batteries? The lithium doesn't actually "burn" away, or just leave the casing?
So, unlike petrol / diesel, which once burnt needs to be recycled in a 100,000 year cycle, batteries surely can be recycled, upgraded etc...? And then the fuel for the batteries can be sourced from somewhere else? And plenty of countries could easily run an energy surplus with geothermal power.
And like horses, an expensive pastime? Probably, and sadly... That said, the horse don't get taxed directly so there's some small hope for the enthusiast!
So, unlike petrol / diesel, which once burnt needs to be recycled in a 100,000 year cycle, batteries surely can be recycled, upgraded etc...? And then the fuel for the batteries can be sourced from somewhere else? And plenty of countries could easily run an energy surplus with geothermal power.
ash73 said:
Chicane-UK said:
Like Jay Leno said in a documentary, he reckons that alternative fuel cars will become the future but he thinks petrol cars will become something like horses are today (a recreational pasttime).
I really like this idea. I think the biggest relevation after the running costs will be the lack of noise. In 50 years we'll look back at combustion engined cars (apart from a few classics) and wonder how we ever put up with the racket.Funk said:
Hmm, I think it's quite ugly if I'm honest (and I owned a 1-series...). The interior looks nice (but not as 'premium' as I expected) and I have massive reservations about plug-in electric cars as a whole.
Firstly we're being told that we're facing an energy problem whereby we don't have the infrastructure in place to meet our needs over the next 5-10 years (and it's too late to solve this with new nuclear power stations as they will take at least that long to build). What happens when half a million people plug in their cars in the evening to charge them up? Or a million? The strain on the Grid will be huge.
Secondly I live in a flat on the second floor - I have nowhere I could plug a car in and I know I won't be alone in this. Cue extra expense having a charging point fitted outside and linked to my meter.
My third concern is with electricity prices. As people move to electric cars, there will be a decrease in fuel duty for the Government. At present VAT is 5% on energy. There's no way the Government won't increase the levies on electricity and as there's no way of distinguishing between domestic use and 'fuelling' a car with juice, it can only mean an increase in electricity prices overall.
Finally my concern is with the charging process itself. I've not seen any charging stations in use, but is there some sort of security system to stop someone being able to a) unplug your car (potentially leaving you stranded) and b) prevent someone else managing to charge their car from your socket?
Overall I don't believe electric cars are the way forward and I think the knock-on (unintended) effects will end up costing us all more in the long run, all in the pursuit of the False Idol of Green.
Very well said. I'm not a Clarkson-esque muppet who thinks everything can be fixed with a thumping V8, I AM a massive car enthusiast and appreciate the need for something to be done, and I enjoy driving all sorts of cars; but I still don't see electric as the answer. If we could get the vast majority of cars (especially in places like the US) that do 15-25mpg to utilise petrol more efficiently (as BMW engines in particular have been over the years) then I would imagine that would have a far bigger impact. Firstly we're being told that we're facing an energy problem whereby we don't have the infrastructure in place to meet our needs over the next 5-10 years (and it's too late to solve this with new nuclear power stations as they will take at least that long to build). What happens when half a million people plug in their cars in the evening to charge them up? Or a million? The strain on the Grid will be huge.
Secondly I live in a flat on the second floor - I have nowhere I could plug a car in and I know I won't be alone in this. Cue extra expense having a charging point fitted outside and linked to my meter.
My third concern is with electricity prices. As people move to electric cars, there will be a decrease in fuel duty for the Government. At present VAT is 5% on energy. There's no way the Government won't increase the levies on electricity and as there's no way of distinguishing between domestic use and 'fuelling' a car with juice, it can only mean an increase in electricity prices overall.
Finally my concern is with the charging process itself. I've not seen any charging stations in use, but is there some sort of security system to stop someone being able to a) unplug your car (potentially leaving you stranded) and b) prevent someone else managing to charge their car from your socket?
Overall I don't believe electric cars are the way forward and I think the knock-on (unintended) effects will end up costing us all more in the long run, all in the pursuit of the False Idol of Green.
ash73 said:
Chicane-UK said:
Like Jay Leno said in a documentary, he reckons that alternative fuel cars will become the future but he thinks petrol cars will become something like horses are today (a recreational pasttime).
I really like this idea. I think the biggest relevation after the running costs will be the lack of noise. In 50 years we'll look back at combustion engined cars (apart from a few classics) and wonder how we ever put up with the racket.horses eat hay, if no one is mass producing Internal combustion engines very little petrol will be produced, there won't any petrol stations
Dagnut said:
the problem with that is if no one is refining petrol how much will it cost?
horses eat hay, if no one is mass producing Internal combustion engines very little petrol will be produced, there won't any petrol stations
I suppose it'll be like running a car on leaded petrol is now - there will be a few petrol stations left for the enthusiasts and prices for the base product will be a fair chunk higher... however once petrol cars make up only a tiny proportion of the cars on the road, there will be no real reason for the government to keep raising petrol duty. horses eat hay, if no one is mass producing Internal combustion engines very little petrol will be produced, there won't any petrol stations
kambites said:
Dagnut said:
the problem with that is if no one is refining petrol how much will it cost?
horses eat hay, if no one is mass producing Internal combustion engines very little petrol will be produced, there won't any petrol stations
I suppose it'll be like running a car on leaded petrol is now - there will be a few petrol stations left for the enthusiasts and prices for the base product will be a fair chunk higher... however once petrol cars make up only a tiny proportion of the cars on the road, there will be no real reason for the government to keep raising petrol duty. horses eat hay, if no one is mass producing Internal combustion engines very little petrol will be produced, there won't any petrol stations
You can get lead additives for older cars now, its more an economy of scales issue..you may well get a few petrol stations..for a while... but once the demand for petrol rapidly diminishes, the drilling will stop. Obviously it will be a gradual process but a terminal one I fear.
Dagnut said:
You can get lead additives for older cars now, its more an economy of scales issue..you may well get a few petrol stations..for a while... but once the demand for petrol rapidly diminishes, the drilling will stop. Obviously it will be a gradual process but a terminal one I fear.
I know you can, but there are still petrol stations that sell 4star. kambites said:
Dagnut said:
You can get lead additives for older cars now, its more an economy of scales issue..you may well get a few petrol stations..for a while... but once the demand for petrol rapidly diminishes, the drilling will stop. Obviously it will be a gradual process but a terminal one I fear.
I know you can, but there are still petrol stations that sell 4star. The best hope for the internal combustion engine is a synthetic, more efficient bio fuel, like the algae and bacteria they are producing now...growing it is never going to work but if they can produce low emissions fuel from , amongst other things , sh!t...the ICE should be safe for a good few years
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