RE: BMW i3 prices confirmed
Discussion
Dagnut said:
But it's not like its very expensive to produce, the oil is already extracted , its just a different refining process. A different facet to an existing process.
The best hope for the internal combustion engine is a synthetic, more efficient bio fuel, like the algae and bacteria they are producing now...growing it is never going to work but if they can produce low emissions fuel from , amongst other things , sh!t...the ICE should be safe for a good few years
The oil will still be extracted and refined after most cars stop using it. It's much more of an efficiency gain to power a car electrically than a container ship or someone's central heating system. The best hope for the internal combustion engine is a synthetic, more efficient bio fuel, like the algae and bacteria they are producing now...growing it is never going to work but if they can produce low emissions fuel from , amongst other things , sh!t...the ICE should be safe for a good few years
Dagnut said:
You can get lead additives for older cars now, its more an economy of scales issue..you may well get a few petrol stations..for a while... but once the demand for petrol rapidly diminishes, the drilling will stop. Obviously it will be a gradual process but a terminal one I fear.
kambites said:
Dagnut said:
But it's not like its very expensive to produce, the oil is already extracted , its just a different refining process. A different facet to an existing process.
The best hope for the internal combustion engine is a synthetic, more efficient bio fuel, like the algae and bacteria they are producing now...growing it is never going to work but if they can produce low emissions fuel from , amongst other things , sh!t...the ICE should be safe for a good few years
The oil will still be extracted and refined after most cars stop using it. It's much more of an efficiency gain to power a car electrically than a container ship or someone's central heating system. The best hope for the internal combustion engine is a synthetic, more efficient bio fuel, like the algae and bacteria they are producing now...growing it is never going to work but if they can produce low emissions fuel from , amongst other things , sh!t...the ICE should be safe for a good few years
Max_Torque said:
Not to mention the slight issue with air transport! Battery powered plane anyone? Nah, it'll never get off the ground.........
<Ahem>http://yuneec.com/EViva.html
http://yuneec.com/Aircraft.html
paulmaurice99 said:
Funk said:
Hmm, I think it's quite ugly if I'm honest (and I owned a 1-series...). The interior looks nice (but not as 'premium' as I expected) and I have massive reservations about plug-in electric cars as a whole.
Firstly we're being told that we're facing an energy problem whereby we don't have the infrastructure in place to meet our needs over the next 5-10 years (and it's too late to solve this with new nuclear power stations as they will take at least that long to build). What happens when half a million people plug in their cars in the evening to charge them up? Or a million? The strain on the Grid will be huge.
Secondly I live in a flat on the second floor - I have nowhere I could plug a car in and I know I won't be alone in this. Cue extra expense having a charging point fitted outside and linked to my meter.
My third concern is with electricity prices. As people move to electric cars, there will be a decrease in fuel duty for the Government. At present VAT is 5% on energy. There's no way the Government won't increase the levies on electricity and as there's no way of distinguishing between domestic use and 'fuelling' a car with juice, it can only mean an increase in electricity prices overall.
Finally my concern is with the charging process itself. I've not seen any charging stations in use, but is there some sort of security system to stop someone being able to a) unplug your car (potentially leaving you stranded) and b) prevent someone else managing to charge their car from your socket?
Overall I don't believe electric cars are the way forward and I think the knock-on (unintended) effects will end up costing us all more in the long run, all in the pursuit of the False Idol of Green.
Very well said. I'm not a Clarkson-esque muppet who thinks everything can be fixed with a thumping V8, I AM a massive car enthusiast and appreciate the need for something to be done, and I enjoy driving all sorts of cars; but I still don't see electric as the answer. If we could get the vast majority of cars (especially in places like the US) that do 15-25mpg to utilise petrol more efficiently (as BMW engines in particular have been over the years) then I would imagine that would have a far bigger impact. Firstly we're being told that we're facing an energy problem whereby we don't have the infrastructure in place to meet our needs over the next 5-10 years (and it's too late to solve this with new nuclear power stations as they will take at least that long to build). What happens when half a million people plug in their cars in the evening to charge them up? Or a million? The strain on the Grid will be huge.
Secondly I live in a flat on the second floor - I have nowhere I could plug a car in and I know I won't be alone in this. Cue extra expense having a charging point fitted outside and linked to my meter.
My third concern is with electricity prices. As people move to electric cars, there will be a decrease in fuel duty for the Government. At present VAT is 5% on energy. There's no way the Government won't increase the levies on electricity and as there's no way of distinguishing between domestic use and 'fuelling' a car with juice, it can only mean an increase in electricity prices overall.
Finally my concern is with the charging process itself. I've not seen any charging stations in use, but is there some sort of security system to stop someone being able to a) unplug your car (potentially leaving you stranded) and b) prevent someone else managing to charge their car from your socket?
Overall I don't believe electric cars are the way forward and I think the knock-on (unintended) effects will end up costing us all more in the long run, all in the pursuit of the False Idol of Green.
Having a predictable, constant/steady and large demand for power over night is actually going to be a beneficial thing.
Shifting noise and also particulate pollution out of cities, towns and suburbs will be a huge mental and physical health boon and arguably take some strain off the NHS. People forget the potency of noise pollution in the urban environment and the fact that increasing an overnight draw on a power station does not increase any noise pollution.
Another interesting aspect is that reducing the demand for petrol in the UK will lead to more price competition as firms work harder to attract a smaller business flow.
All in, EVs are going to be a really useful alternative for very many UK people in a very short period of time and the benefits to all will be noticeable.
Dagnut said:
the problem with that is if no one is refining petrol how much will it cost?
horses eat hay, if no one is mass producing Internal combustion engines very little petrol will be produced, there won't any petrol stations
Population is growing, car ownership is increasing, the need for longer distance vehicles is growing. horses eat hay, if no one is mass producing Internal combustion engines very little petrol will be produced, there won't any petrol stations
Even if EVs took 20% of the market share over the next 20 years, the demand for petrol and diesel won't be decreasing and more than making engines more efficient has and is doing.
Real price of oil is under $20/barrel, so at a current market price circa $100/barrel there is plenty of fat to be cut before it has any effect on us.
AnotherClarkey said:
Max_Torque said:
Not to mention the slight issue with air transport! Battery powered plane anyone? Nah, it'll never get off the ground.........
<Ahem>http://yuneec.com/EViva.html
http://yuneec.com/Aircraft.html
Gonna need a few more batteries in that one ;-)
tter.DonkeyApple said:
There won't be any strain on the grid from EVs. When you look at the way the UK utilises the Grid you can see that after about 10pm there is almost endless spare capacity. The lovely thing about EVs is that unlike the 8pm kettle spike it is even, constant, efficient demand through the lowest demand period and also the most inefficient period for the grid.
Having a predictable, constant/steady and large demand for power over night is actually going to be a beneficial thing.
Shifting noise and also particulate pollution out of cities, towns and suburbs will be a huge mental and physical health boon and arguably take some strain off the NHS. People forget the potency of noise pollution in the urban environment and the fact that increasing an overnight draw on a power station does not increase any noise pollution.
Another interesting aspect is that reducing the demand for petrol in the UK will lead to more price competition as firms work harder to attract a smaller business flow.
All in, EVs are going to be a really useful alternative for very many UK people in a very short period of time and the benefits to all will be noticeable.
To pick up on the point of charging times most EV's (including this one) have the ability to 'talk' to the charging box/post and you can choose when you want it to charge, i.e. late at night when it's cheaper.Having a predictable, constant/steady and large demand for power over night is actually going to be a beneficial thing.
Shifting noise and also particulate pollution out of cities, towns and suburbs will be a huge mental and physical health boon and arguably take some strain off the NHS. People forget the potency of noise pollution in the urban environment and the fact that increasing an overnight draw on a power station does not increase any noise pollution.
Another interesting aspect is that reducing the demand for petrol in the UK will lead to more price competition as firms work harder to attract a smaller business flow.
All in, EVs are going to be a really useful alternative for very many UK people in a very short period of time and the benefits to all will be noticeable.
What's also quite handy is you can programme the car to have the heaters on for when you get in on a cold morning, no detrimental effect to the battery as its plugged in...
All in all EV's won't be for all but they certainly have their place in today's world but I don't think this will be the future long term, there will be ICE's for a long time yet!
I commute 35miles each way..
i have a drive and a garage..
a Leaf.. or this would be utterly perfect for me, as i currently spend £200 p/mth on fuel
.. just a shame i cant afford to buy one as im not paid enough
that, and the finance for a £12k used leaf is about £269 per month.. blowing my monthly transport budget out the window and not saving me anything at all
A lease for a Leaf on 20k p/a will be close to £500m/pth.. WTF
so i may as well keep driving sheds.. its cheaper....
i have a drive and a garage..
a Leaf.. or this would be utterly perfect for me, as i currently spend £200 p/mth on fuel
.. just a shame i cant afford to buy one as im not paid enough
that, and the finance for a £12k used leaf is about £269 per month.. blowing my monthly transport budget out the window and not saving me anything at all
A lease for a Leaf on 20k p/a will be close to £500m/pth.. WTF
so i may as well keep driving sheds.. its cheaper....
Anyone thinking of buying an electric car in the UK needs to think again. We're about to enter a period in the UK where electricity pricing is according to industry forecast likely to rise by eye watering amounts. Thanks to something called the Large Combustion Plant Directive (LCPD) vaste swathes of the UK's coal fired electricity generation has to come off line by 2015.....and then a lot of the Nuclear generation capacity has to come offline in the following years as the plants are reaching the end of their useful lives. There are very high likelihoods of brownout's (power cuts to you and me) with OFGEM predicting basically a 10% chance.
Your electric car won't be very cheap to run at all....
http://www.energyglobal.com/news/coal/articles/The...
Ever wondered why the govt are desperate for natural gas fracking? That's your answer. Gas fired power stations.....and nuclear eventually.
Your electric car won't be very cheap to run at all....
http://www.energyglobal.com/news/coal/articles/The...
Ever wondered why the govt are desperate for natural gas fracking? That's your answer. Gas fired power stations.....and nuclear eventually.
Cheib said:
Anyone thinking of buying an electric car in the UK needs to think again. We're about to enter a period in the UK where electricity pricing is according to industry forecast likely to rise by eye watering amounts. Thanks to something called the Large Combustion Plant Directive (LCPD) vaste swathes of the UK's coal fired electricity generation has to come off line by 2015.....and then a lot of the Nuclear generation capacity has to come offline in the following years as the plants are reaching the end of their useful lives. There are very high likelihoods of brownout's (power cuts to you and me) with OFGEM predicting basically a 10% chance.
Your electric car won't be very cheap to run at all....
http://www.energyglobal.com/news/coal/articles/The...
Ever wondered why the govt are desperate for natural gas fracking? That's your answer. Gas fired power stations.....and nuclear eventually.
Remove 20% of the generation capacity and it impacts the periods of peak demand, not the troughs. Your electric car won't be very cheap to run at all....
http://www.energyglobal.com/news/coal/articles/The...
Ever wondered why the govt are desperate for natural gas fracking? That's your answer. Gas fired power stations.....and nuclear eventually.
So, loss of capacity impacts peak users. EV charging is not a peak consumption event.
DonkeyApple said:
Remove 20% of the generation capacity and it impacts the periods of peak demand, not the troughs.
So, loss of capacity impacts peak users. EV charging is not a peak consumption event.
If anything, the proliferation of electric cars and smart meters will help increase the capacity of the grid by using the collective storage capacity of thousands, even millions of battery packs to smooth out the peaks and troughs of demand.So, loss of capacity impacts peak users. EV charging is not a peak consumption event.
The Vambo said:
DonkeyApple said:
Remove 20% of the generation capacity and it impacts the periods of peak demand, not the troughs.
So, loss of capacity impacts peak users. EV charging is not a peak consumption event.
If anything, the proliferation of electric cars and smart meters will help increase the capacity of the grid by using the collective storage capacity of thousands, even millions of battery packs to smooth out the peaks and troughs of demand.So, loss of capacity impacts peak users. EV charging is not a peak consumption event.
SystemParanoia said:
that sounds fantastic news, better make sure my AA / RAC membersip is up to date then if the power companies are going to nick my cars charge!
I suppose you better, as given the option to take 1% of 50,000 cars charge or empty 50 cars I am sure they will take the one most likely to allow a flippant reply. The Vambo said:
SystemParanoia said:
that sounds fantastic news, better make sure my AA / RAC membersip is up to date then if the power companies are going to nick my cars charge!
I suppose you better, as given the option to take 1% of 50,000 cars charge or empty 50 cars I am sure they will take the one most likely to allow a flippant reply. probably easier to just not allow then to fit a smart meter
dont want them turning my fridge off either hahah
The Vambo said:
DonkeyApple said:
Remove 20% of the generation capacity and it impacts the periods of peak demand, not the troughs.
So, loss of capacity impacts peak users. EV charging is not a peak consumption event.
If anything, the proliferation of electric cars and smart meters will help increase the capacity of the grid by using the collective storage capacity of thousands, even millions of battery packs to smooth out the peaks and troughs of demand.So, loss of capacity impacts peak users. EV charging is not a peak consumption event.
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