RE: Aston and AMG: it's official!
Discussion
chelme said:
Those that emphasize the 'pragmatism' and 'financial realities' fail to appreciate the long term consequences of what amounts to a cost cutting exercise. Yes in the near future, it may benefit Aston Martin to stick AMG engines. Long Term, when arguably considered compromised as simply a glorified coachbuilder, the situation could well be very different.
The problem with evolution is that every step needs to be viable. There's no point trying to get to utopia if you die on the way :-([quote=chelm
AMG Mercedes will only benefit from this collaboration; it will be considered the manufacturer providing the heart of the vehicle and their reputation for building engines for others will only enhance their standing.
[/quote]
Looking at the collaboration from a commercial perspective, both parties are a winner.
AMG gets the brand prestige of Aston Martin, thereby enhancing reputation, and Aston Martin gets the expertise of AMG without the costs (quantum of which is debatable) of developing new, emission friendly engines.
I would go as far as to say the image and overall design of an AM is what attracts buyers. My view is that 90% of customers will not care about the origins of the engine and elitist tosh about the prestige of the brand, they just want the car for image. Buying an AM has never been about buying the fastest car on the market, it's about buying the best looking.
That said, AM will now also benefit from some muscle in the lower department which if done correctly, will potentially tempt previous buyers of Lamborghini, Ferrari etc into buying an AM.
I would say the partnership compliments itself rather well.
AMG Mercedes will only benefit from this collaboration; it will be considered the manufacturer providing the heart of the vehicle and their reputation for building engines for others will only enhance their standing.
[/quote]
Looking at the collaboration from a commercial perspective, both parties are a winner.
AMG gets the brand prestige of Aston Martin, thereby enhancing reputation, and Aston Martin gets the expertise of AMG without the costs (quantum of which is debatable) of developing new, emission friendly engines.
I would go as far as to say the image and overall design of an AM is what attracts buyers. My view is that 90% of customers will not care about the origins of the engine and elitist tosh about the prestige of the brand, they just want the car for image. Buying an AM has never been about buying the fastest car on the market, it's about buying the best looking.
That said, AM will now also benefit from some muscle in the lower department which if done correctly, will potentially tempt previous buyers of Lamborghini, Ferrari etc into buying an AM.
I would say the partnership compliments itself rather well.
Mave said:
The problem with evolution is that every step needs to be viable. There's no point trying to get to utopia if you die on the way :-(
Viable for whom? A bunch of short termist money greedy financiers and like minded investors. I was hoping Investindustrial would take a different view, but alais, they are all the same. AM risks placing itself permanently in the low volume periphery, relegating itself to Morgan territory, a quant and faintly irrelevant 'specialist'.
Mave said:
The problem with evolution is that every step needs to be viable. There's no point trying to get to utopia if you die on the way :-(
And there's little point in a company surviving if they give up what makes them worth buying to survive. We've all see the "survive as whatever you need to" model and it's rarely to the benefit of anyone - See the MG 6 family and SAAB 9-2X "Saabaru" and SAAB 9-7X as examples. (or, for that matter, Bentley during its years as a Rolls-Royce with a less ostentatious radiator - hardly something that kept the heritage of Sir Tim and the rest of the Bentley Boys going)WTF is wrong with you lot? AMG are bad, their cars are bad, all they do is shout about, for every AMG everyone else has a better car! Soon as I see AMG I just laugh! All noise and nothing else! And if you throw that crap about fun and putting the tail out, remember, can you do that on a motor way? Or small public roads don't think so, so don't even go there!
jsd14 said:
I love how Porsche get mentioned in an article that is not remotely related to them!
When was the last time the DB9 or V8 vantage actually recieved new body panels?
Same old chestnut - Porsche designs may be similar but their not the SAME and they must be doing something right if they don't have to rely upon other companies for chassis and power plants eh?
Being owned by a company like Volkswagon AG more than likely has its financial benefits....When was the last time the DB9 or V8 vantage actually recieved new body panels?
Same old chestnut - Porsche designs may be similar but their not the SAME and they must be doing something right if they don't have to rely upon other companies for chassis and power plants eh?
sw1000xg said:
WTF is wrong with you lot? AMG are bad, their cars are bad, all they do is shout about, for every AMG everyone else has a better car! Soon as I see AMG I just laugh! All noise and nothing else! And if you throw that crap about fun and putting the tail out, remember, can you do that on a motor way? Or small public roads don't think so, so don't even go there!
Driven them all have you?smilo996 said:
Call me cynical but.....
The heart of an Aston is an Aston V8 or V12. Not an AMG V8 or V12.
Although not leading edge, they never were. That in some ways is the point.
Coswotrh is no longer working in F1. It's engine for the CX-75 is not needed because Jag are not making the CX75 though Porka are making the 918, MC Laren the P1 and Ferrari the La.
Lotus is still stagnated and its engineering "arm" not helping much to rectify the situation.
Jag and RR are doing wonders.
Koenigssseg are happily able to make a 9740HP V8 twin turbo in house.
It is another chapter in Germanification of Europe's car industry. And as such I cannot see how Aston will have anything to say or teach AMG about engines or tech in general. Let alone have any real influence on AMG's plans for engine development. Imagine an Aston Martin with a twin turbo...!?!?!?
German companies now have a significant tech stake or ownership so many small and medium producers it is no longer funny.
To be honest I fail to see, how for example a pairing of Aston / Jaguar / Cosworth of Jaguar / anyone on F1 could not bring a decent solution to Aston.....
The plaque on your Aston Engine will be changed to mass produced by AMG. as Aston relegated to being a coach builder.
I say we can't complain about these things now. In Germany, they ( I assume) spend more money on science and engineering, their degrees are longer and probably harder, the engineering title is protected, its a prestigious job to have and has real weight behind it. Lots of clever people working in a great, well run industry. Look at the top dogs in most of the companies as well.... All Engineering and Science Doctorates/PhDs.The heart of an Aston is an Aston V8 or V12. Not an AMG V8 or V12.
Although not leading edge, they never were. That in some ways is the point.
Coswotrh is no longer working in F1. It's engine for the CX-75 is not needed because Jag are not making the CX75 though Porka are making the 918, MC Laren the P1 and Ferrari the La.
Lotus is still stagnated and its engineering "arm" not helping much to rectify the situation.
Jag and RR are doing wonders.
Koenigssseg are happily able to make a 9740HP V8 twin turbo in house.
It is another chapter in Germanification of Europe's car industry. And as such I cannot see how Aston will have anything to say or teach AMG about engines or tech in general. Let alone have any real influence on AMG's plans for engine development. Imagine an Aston Martin with a twin turbo...!?!?!?
German companies now have a significant tech stake or ownership so many small and medium producers it is no longer funny.
To be honest I fail to see, how for example a pairing of Aston / Jaguar / Cosworth of Jaguar / anyone on F1 could not bring a decent solution to Aston.....
The plaque on your Aston Engine will be changed to mass produced by AMG. as Aston relegated to being a coach builder.
In the UK, if you're an engineer, the lay man thinks you'll come round and sort their leaky boiler for them. Its not a well paid profession on the whole, its not got the cachet of other professions and any old sod can call themselves and engineer. Same goes for science which I think is even less well backed (unless its global warming b
ks in which case they throw blank cheques at it). In the UK its all about banking, none jobs with the government and other business bullstters who get paid a lot of money to do nothing much of real substance. All the while Germany continue to actually turn raw materials into great products for export.If engineering and science in this country had the same weight behind it as it does in, say, Germany, maybe our car makers wouldn't be in such a position that they have to go cap in hand to the germans for supplies to keep going.
chelme said:
Mave said:
The problem with evolution is that every step needs to be viable. There's no point trying to get to utopia if you die on the way :-(
Viable for whom? A bunch of short termist money greedy financiers and like minded investors. I was hoping Investindustrial would take a different view, but alais, they are all the same. AM risks placing itself permanently in the low volume periphery, relegating itself to Morgan territory, a quant and faintly irrelevant 'specialist'.
AML are owned by PE companies with a minority shareholding now being held by MB.
Not long from now, they will be a sub-brand of MB in the same way as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati and Porsche.
The Vambo said:
MikeGalos said:
Precisely.
What, actually, is there left that Aston actually create.
The chassis? Lotus Engineering.
The engine? Now AMG.
The body and interior? Yes. But virtually identical in all models for a decade.
This is how many many big name manufacturing companies run and run successfully. Go and rip the back off your TV or laptop, how many of the components do you think Panasonic/Sony/LG actually design and make? Sony don't even make the screens in any of their TVs.What, actually, is there left that Aston actually create.
The chassis? Lotus Engineering.
The engine? Now AMG.
The body and interior? Yes. But virtually identical in all models for a decade.
Otispunkmeyer said:
They might not make them (though I am sure SONY have their own foundry for this thing, I am positive they make panels for some sort of display) but I bet it'll have been designed by them. It wont be an off the shelf item from LG/Samsung or AU Optronics for instance.
How do I collect on that lost bet? Fantastic news, and news that makes complete sense.
Aston have a great brand and good looking cars but just recently have lacked firepower.
Amg have fantastic power but since becoming a Merc brand (with all the Amg styling nonsense) have become a trim level.
As with the Zonda previously and the F1 for BMW, this is a fantastic opportunity for AMG mercedes to cement themselves as the manufacturer of the best engines in the world.
Aston have a great brand and good looking cars but just recently have lacked firepower.
Amg have fantastic power but since becoming a Merc brand (with all the Amg styling nonsense) have become a trim level.
As with the Zonda previously and the F1 for BMW, this is a fantastic opportunity for AMG mercedes to cement themselves as the manufacturer of the best engines in the world.
The Vambo said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
They might not make them (though I am sure SONY have their own foundry for this thing, I am positive they make panels for some sort of display) but I bet it'll have been designed by them. It wont be an off the shelf item from LG/Samsung or AU Optronics for instance.
How do I collect on that lost bet? A quick peruse suggests they do simply buy panels off of LG and I think more recently SHARP. They just produce their own electronics to drive them. Poor show for them, I thought they were better than that. I could have sworn they made some kind of panel though! Maybe they just dabbled with their OLED efforts, but it seems they didnt build any LCD capable plant when they had the chance.
Is there an alternative to AMG? The prohibitive costs of a new engine in house is a non starter so this may be the only way forward. Or do we go back to the dark days when every other week the company was in the news as another owner tried to save it?
I agree it is sad that a once proud specialist car manufacturer is joining up with other companies but if it means the survival of the best car maker in the world (my humble opinion), surely that is better than trying to go it alone and floundering once more?
I agree it is sad that a once proud specialist car manufacturer is joining up with other companies but if it means the survival of the best car maker in the world (my humble opinion), surely that is better than trying to go it alone and floundering once more?
"Regardless, Pagani will never ever gain the same respect and adoration as marques like Ferrari and Porsche."
Oh really what a fatuous comment. Do people respect Porsche more for their RMS oil leaks, and Ferrari for their new spontaneous combustion! We have heard a lot of hot air on here about this situation. It is a fact of life with limited companies that shareholders expect dividends and an ever increasing value in the share price..this is not greed or the devils work it's capitalism and how the world currently works. Aston Martin needed new engines to remain an independent luxury sports car maker, and currently could not afford them. Hence new investors looked at the company LIKED what they saw and bought in (IndustrialInvest). They are not fools, but were extremely intelligent in assisting, by mutual interest, Aston Martin and AMG to make a deal. This was by far the best outcome to ensure the company REMAINED a player in the luxury sports car market. Anyone is entitled to an opinion on this but better still put your money where your mouth is and order a car NOW and see what it's worth in 2 years time against a new AMG engined Aston. The high levels of depreciation on the AM V8 are not sustainable currently as a sensible purchase unless it is funded via a company purchase. The £25k second hand V8 is here would you like to lose that much. Hence Aston needed premium engines at a good price to be able to invest in other areas of the car ie suspension and chassis to build a more perfect car to retain it's value..or else it won't sell.THIS IS THE REALITY HERE not stuff of "Legends" but selling cars, or else they would not have been able to sustain a sensible way forward without limiting the range etc etc. AMG is a legendary engineering badge unlike most others.
Oh really what a fatuous comment. Do people respect Porsche more for their RMS oil leaks, and Ferrari for their new spontaneous combustion! We have heard a lot of hot air on here about this situation. It is a fact of life with limited companies that shareholders expect dividends and an ever increasing value in the share price..this is not greed or the devils work it's capitalism and how the world currently works. Aston Martin needed new engines to remain an independent luxury sports car maker, and currently could not afford them. Hence new investors looked at the company LIKED what they saw and bought in (IndustrialInvest). They are not fools, but were extremely intelligent in assisting, by mutual interest, Aston Martin and AMG to make a deal. This was by far the best outcome to ensure the company REMAINED a player in the luxury sports car market. Anyone is entitled to an opinion on this but better still put your money where your mouth is and order a car NOW and see what it's worth in 2 years time against a new AMG engined Aston. The high levels of depreciation on the AM V8 are not sustainable currently as a sensible purchase unless it is funded via a company purchase. The £25k second hand V8 is here would you like to lose that much. Hence Aston needed premium engines at a good price to be able to invest in other areas of the car ie suspension and chassis to build a more perfect car to retain it's value..or else it won't sell.THIS IS THE REALITY HERE not stuff of "Legends" but selling cars, or else they would not have been able to sustain a sensible way forward without limiting the range etc etc. AMG is a legendary engineering badge unlike most others.
Otispunkmeyer said:
If you live in the Loughborough area I can buy you a pint
A quick peruse suggests they do simply buy panels off of LG and I think more recently SHARP. They just produce their own electronics to drive them. Poor show for them, I thought they were better than that. I could have sworn they made some kind of panel though! Maybe they just dabbled with their OLED efforts, but it seems they didnt build any LCD capable plant when they had the chance.
A quick peruse suggests they do simply buy panels off of LG and I think more recently SHARP. They just produce their own electronics to drive them. Poor show for them, I thought they were better than that. I could have sworn they made some kind of panel though! Maybe they just dabbled with their OLED efforts, but it seems they didnt build any LCD capable plant when they had the chance.
In all fairness, Sony only stopped making panels when they terminated a joint venture with Sharp in May 2012.
To over stretch an analogy, Aston are in the exact same position as Bang & Olufsen, buying in the hardware from major manufacturers and creating a high end product with their own distinct design language and user experience.
pagani1 said:
"Regardless, Pagani will never ever gain the same respect and adoration as marques like Ferrari and Porsche."
Oh really what a fatuous comment. Do people respect Porsche more for their RMS oil leaks, and Ferrari for their new spontaneous combustion! We have heard a lot of hot air on here about this situation. It is a fact of life with limited companies that shareholders expect dividends and an ever increasing value in the share price..this is not greed or the devils work it's capitalism and how the world currently works. Aston Martin needed new engines to remain an independent luxury sports car maker, and currently could not afford them. Hence new investors looked at the company LIKED what they saw and bought in (IndustrialInvest). They are not fools, but were extremely intelligent in assisting, by mutual interest, Aston Martin and AMG to make a deal. This was by far the best outcome to ensure the company REMAINED a player in the luxury sports car market. Anyone is entitled to an opinion on this but better still put your money where your mouth is and order a car NOW and see what it's worth in 2 years time against a new AMG engined Aston. The high levels of depreciation on the AM V8 are not sustainable currently as a sensible purchase unless it is funded via a company purchase. The £25k second hand V8 is here would you like to lose that much. Hence Aston needed premium engines at a good price to be able to invest in other areas of the car ie suspension and chassis to build a more perfect car to retain it's value..or else it won't sell.THIS IS THE REALITY HERE not stuff of "Legends" but selling cars, or else they would not have been able to sustain a sensible way forward without limiting the range etc etc. AMG is a legendary engineering badge unlike most others.
Oh really what a fatuous comment. Do people respect Porsche more for their RMS oil leaks, and Ferrari for their new spontaneous combustion! We have heard a lot of hot air on here about this situation. It is a fact of life with limited companies that shareholders expect dividends and an ever increasing value in the share price..this is not greed or the devils work it's capitalism and how the world currently works. Aston Martin needed new engines to remain an independent luxury sports car maker, and currently could not afford them. Hence new investors looked at the company LIKED what they saw and bought in (IndustrialInvest). They are not fools, but were extremely intelligent in assisting, by mutual interest, Aston Martin and AMG to make a deal. This was by far the best outcome to ensure the company REMAINED a player in the luxury sports car market. Anyone is entitled to an opinion on this but better still put your money where your mouth is and order a car NOW and see what it's worth in 2 years time against a new AMG engined Aston. The high levels of depreciation on the AM V8 are not sustainable currently as a sensible purchase unless it is funded via a company purchase. The £25k second hand V8 is here would you like to lose that much. Hence Aston needed premium engines at a good price to be able to invest in other areas of the car ie suspension and chassis to build a more perfect car to retain it's value..or else it won't sell.THIS IS THE REALITY HERE not stuff of "Legends" but selling cars, or else they would not have been able to sustain a sensible way forward without limiting the range etc etc. AMG is a legendary engineering badge unlike most others.
pagani1 said:
"Regardless, Pagani will never ever gain the same respect and adoration as marques like Ferrari and Porsche."
Oh really what a fatuous comment. Do people respect Porsche more for their RMS oil leaks, and Ferrari for their new spontaneous combustion! We have heard a lot of hot air on here about this situation. It is a fact of life with limited companies that shareholders expect dividends and an ever increasing value in the share price..this is not greed or the devils work it's capitalism and how the world currently works. Aston Martin needed new engines to remain an independent luxury sports car maker, and currently could not afford them. Hence new investors looked at the company LIKED what they saw and bought in (IndustrialInvest). They are not fools, but were extremely intelligent in assisting, by mutual interest, Aston Martin and AMG to make a deal. This was by far the best outcome to ensure the company REMAINED a player in the luxury sports car market. Anyone is entitled to an opinion on this but better still put your money where your mouth is and order a car NOW and see what it's worth in 2 years time against a new AMG engined Aston. The high levels of depreciation on the AM V8 are not sustainable currently as a sensible purchase unless it is funded via a company purchase. The £25k second hand V8 is here would you like to lose that much. Hence Aston needed premium engines at a good price to be able to invest in other areas of the car ie suspension and chassis to build a more perfect car to retain it's value..or else it won't sell.THIS IS THE REALITY HERE not stuff of "Legends" but selling cars, or else they would not have been able to sustain a sensible way forward without limiting the range etc etc. AMG is a legendary engineering badge unlike most others.
Hit a nerve did I? Oh really what a fatuous comment. Do people respect Porsche more for their RMS oil leaks, and Ferrari for their new spontaneous combustion! We have heard a lot of hot air on here about this situation. It is a fact of life with limited companies that shareholders expect dividends and an ever increasing value in the share price..this is not greed or the devils work it's capitalism and how the world currently works. Aston Martin needed new engines to remain an independent luxury sports car maker, and currently could not afford them. Hence new investors looked at the company LIKED what they saw and bought in (IndustrialInvest). They are not fools, but were extremely intelligent in assisting, by mutual interest, Aston Martin and AMG to make a deal. This was by far the best outcome to ensure the company REMAINED a player in the luxury sports car market. Anyone is entitled to an opinion on this but better still put your money where your mouth is and order a car NOW and see what it's worth in 2 years time against a new AMG engined Aston. The high levels of depreciation on the AM V8 are not sustainable currently as a sensible purchase unless it is funded via a company purchase. The £25k second hand V8 is here would you like to lose that much. Hence Aston needed premium engines at a good price to be able to invest in other areas of the car ie suspension and chassis to build a more perfect car to retain it's value..or else it won't sell.THIS IS THE REALITY HERE not stuff of "Legends" but selling cars, or else they would not have been able to sustain a sensible way forward without limiting the range etc etc. AMG is a legendary engineering badge unlike most others.
Depreciation has taken its toll on most mass produced products, including as it happens, AMG models.
Pagani may not lose much money on depreciation, but this is only because there aren't that many about. Despite this, because it isn't a thoroughbred, it will never exchange hands at the level of funds commanded by the ‘Greats’. This is fact supported by history, whether we like it or not.
Instead of spending vast amounts of money on 'hot air' as you put it, AM was better placed to continue reinvesting in developing powertrains or team up with another company with less EGO than AMG. A consultancy firm like Ricardo or Cosworth would have been better for the AM Brand in the long run, for the engines could still be marketed as AM units, but with the prestige of having i.e. 'Cosworth' partaking in developing them.
My argument is not necessarily about the AM Brand remaining 'British' per se. Its about the Brand remaining respected as a whole for what it offers. I, as many others here have given our reasons for why AM risks losing its Brand Value by teaming up with AMG Mercedes, an EGO centric company which will, it has already been demonstrated, be difficult to work with and one which will seek to dominate (cf its short-lived partnership with McLaren).
whoami said:
Big difference though.
AML are owned by PE companies with a minority shareholding now being held by MB.
Not long from now, they will be a sub-brand of MB in the same way as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati and Porsche.
When you say 'in the same way as', haven't you missed a point there? Ferrari does not have a Fiat engine and Porsche doesn't have VW engine. The V10 produced for the Gallardo was for that car, and only that car in the same way the V12 has been engineered specifically for the Aventador. They were not 'borrowed' from Audi or VW. Maserati engines are similarly built specifically for their cars despite being engineered by Ferrari.AML are owned by PE companies with a minority shareholding now being held by MB.
Not long from now, they will be a sub-brand of MB in the same way as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati and Porsche.
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