RE: Aston and AMG: it's official!
Discussion
kambites said:
Certainly a good thing for Aston's future. Producing custom engines for small(ish)-volume cars is never very financially attractive and if they're going to buy them in, they probably couldn't have picked a better source.
Agreed, and TVR take note, that 5.5 bi Turbo would be perfect in either marque.I don't really see how this could be a bad move, AMG have built some fantastic engines over the last few years.
Edited by Walter Sobchak on Friday 26th July 00:55
Good news for AM but I wish they had locked at working with maybe Jag or Cosworth , the latter has engine skills that could have worked and Jag have a lovely V8 desiel they might have tried, its just Aston will now become less and less britsh , Merc could certainly do with a posh end car like vw and Bentey and BMW and RR
Walter Sobchak said:
kambites said:
Certainly a good thing for Aston's future. Producing custom engines for small(ish)-volume cars is never very financially attractive and if they're going to buy them in, they probably couldn't have picked a better source.
Agreed, and TVR take note, that 5.5 bi Turbo would be perfect in either marque.I don't really see how this could be a bad move, AMG have built some fantastic engines over the last few years.
Edited by Walter Sobchak on Friday 26th July 00:55
This is excellent news for both Aston Martin and AMG.
Mave said:
MikeGalos said:
People do NOT buy an Aston Martin because it's the highest performance car nor that it's state of the art or because it offers great performance value. They buy it because it's PERCIEVED as THE elegant high performance car that reflects a certain old world concern for craftsmanship and because it's James Bond's car
Unfortunately I suspect that changed when AM became the footballer's brand of choice :-SThe odd one falls in to their hands but they don't have the bragging rights & brashness of Ferrari's, Lambos etc
I didn't get it until I owned one, they are not about out and out performance, they never have been!
whoami said:
Big difference though.
AML are owned by PE companies with a minority shareholding now being held by MB.
Not long from now, they will be a sub-brand of MB in the same way as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati and Porsche.
MB have no shareholding YET it depends on how this deal pans out, they won't even finalise the letter of intent until the end of the year AML are owned by PE companies with a minority shareholding now being held by MB.
Not long from now, they will be a sub-brand of MB in the same way as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati and Porsche.
And when they do it will be 5% that is not going to give them a lot of control.
mikey k said:
whoami said:
Big difference though.
AML are owned by PE companies with a minority shareholding now being held by MB.
Not long from now, they will be a sub-brand of MB in the same way as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati and Porsche.
MB have no shareholding YET it depends on how this deal pans out, they won't even finalise the letter of intent until the end of the year AML are owned by PE companies with a minority shareholding now being held by MB.
Not long from now, they will be a sub-brand of MB in the same way as Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati and Porsche.
And when they do it will be 5% that is not going to give them a lot of control.
The bankrolling by private equity will stop at some stage and a buyer will be sought.
MB dipping their toe in the water with a 5% stake could well increase at that point.
Lets hope AMG develop some leading next-gen NA V8's and V12's for the Aston Martin cars then.
Ferrari have their V8 in the F458, and the V12 in the new F12, and even Lambo have managed a high rev V12 in the Aventador, and they all pass required legislation.
I hope the move to AMG power doesn't mean turbo in an Aston. For me an Aston is defined by big capacity insta-power, or at least supercharged insta-power. Anything with a turbo will be very very weird.
Dave
Ferrari have their V8 in the F458, and the V12 in the new F12, and even Lambo have managed a high rev V12 in the Aventador, and they all pass required legislation.
I hope the move to AMG power doesn't mean turbo in an Aston. For me an Aston is defined by big capacity insta-power, or at least supercharged insta-power. Anything with a turbo will be very very weird.
Dave
I love all this empassioned debate about what engine goes under the bonnet of a car most who have posted have never and will probably never own, I suspect most owners probably dont really care as long as it goes well, doesnt break and a makes a nice noise.
I think too much brand image gets involved with engines and where they come from, as if say, peopel want to make a point but arent sure what it is, its nothing about engines in a lot of cases, its about their abstract brand impressions,
A Citroen engine is made of Slag, Rocks and "Fail"
Audi engines are made of Taste the difference Aluminium with a dash of lovely middle class leathery premiumness.
A Lambo engine (A real one) basically being some kind of musical instrument that happens to make some power whilst making its lovely noise, made of ground Titanium infused with Pavarotti oil by Castrati in the Sistine Chapel.
Chevy engines are made of old melted spurs and banjos, then they are put through a rigorous line dancing session to test them, so simple, they have only one moving part.
Aston engines, milled from a solid lump of Brass, in a shed, by blokes in blazers who look suspiciously like the major from Fawlty Towers, tested by injecting real ale and signed off by Morris dancers, actually, I think that may be Morgan.
Actually, its all pretty much pistons, valves, cranks and stuff, the real differences come from the amount of power extracted, the number of pistons and all the gubbins that run it, any major manufacturer can build pretty much any engine, its down to whether they need to, they all strip down each others efforts, Citroen could make a wailing 700 V12 if they wanted to, it is just their market segment doesnt call for it. TVR managed to make their own engine, ok, not the best example but they werent that far wide of the mark, I suspect nowadays there is more knowledge about and the problems with that engine probably wouldnt have happened, all the clever stuff nowadays is outside the oily bits.
I think too much brand image gets involved with engines and where they come from, as if say, peopel want to make a point but arent sure what it is, its nothing about engines in a lot of cases, its about their abstract brand impressions,
A Citroen engine is made of Slag, Rocks and "Fail"
Audi engines are made of Taste the difference Aluminium with a dash of lovely middle class leathery premiumness.
A Lambo engine (A real one) basically being some kind of musical instrument that happens to make some power whilst making its lovely noise, made of ground Titanium infused with Pavarotti oil by Castrati in the Sistine Chapel.
Chevy engines are made of old melted spurs and banjos, then they are put through a rigorous line dancing session to test them, so simple, they have only one moving part.
Aston engines, milled from a solid lump of Brass, in a shed, by blokes in blazers who look suspiciously like the major from Fawlty Towers, tested by injecting real ale and signed off by Morris dancers, actually, I think that may be Morgan.
Actually, its all pretty much pistons, valves, cranks and stuff, the real differences come from the amount of power extracted, the number of pistons and all the gubbins that run it, any major manufacturer can build pretty much any engine, its down to whether they need to, they all strip down each others efforts, Citroen could make a wailing 700 V12 if they wanted to, it is just their market segment doesnt call for it. TVR managed to make their own engine, ok, not the best example but they werent that far wide of the mark, I suspect nowadays there is more knowledge about and the problems with that engine probably wouldnt have happened, all the clever stuff nowadays is outside the oily bits.
Krikkit said:
Megaflow said:
Krikkit said:
JMC1 said:
...words.
Agree completely - I wouldn't like the idea of buying an Aston with a borrowed Mercedes engine, even though AMG make some of the best units out there at the moment.Or:
1) A Rolls Royce with a borrowed BMW engine?
2) A Mini with a borrowed Peugeot engine?
3) A Range Rover with a borrowed Ford engine?
4) A Pagani with a borrowed AMG Engine?
5) A Lamborghini with a borrowed Audi engine?
6) etc etc etc...
The V8 in the Vantage may be based on the Jaguar AJ-V8, but have since pretty much re-developed the whole thing. The V12 is the same thing - based on two Ford V6's many years ago, it was developed solely for Aston, and has been reworked completely since then.
Pagani couldn't have started if they made their own for the C12. Since then they've continually had AMG modify it to their spec, it's become their own.
The Lamborghini V10 was developed for them, just because it's subsequently been used elsewhere doesn't make it less special. It was built for the Gallardo.
The Rolls is a stickler for me - sharing the engine with a puny 7-series is a bit below what is supposed to be the ultimate in luxury cars.
Mini/Range doesn't make any difference to me - they're not sports cars and have never had their own engines, objectively speaking.
Edited by Krikkit on Thursday 25th July 12:39
The romantic 'ah but it loses its specialness' argument counts a whole lot more on internet forums than it will to actual buyers. When the first reviews come out and say Evo back to back test an AMG and non AMG DB9 you will not find a single potential buyer who will now but their money elsewhere because of the 'specialness' the slower/heavier/less sonorus version had. Which is really all that matters!
cidered77 said:
Aston Martins will almost certainly be better cars ith AMG engines. faster, lighter, more economical - probably sound better too.
The romantic 'ah but it loses its specialness' argument counts a whole lot more on internet forums than it will to actual buyers. When the first reviews come out and say Evo back to back test an AMG and non AMG DB9 you will not find a single potential buyer who will now but their money elsewhere because of the 'specialness' the slower/heavier/less sonorus version had. Which is really all that matters!
.... Just scanned the last few pages. I'm a bit late to this debate, arent I? The romantic 'ah but it loses its specialness' argument counts a whole lot more on internet forums than it will to actual buyers. When the first reviews come out and say Evo back to back test an AMG and non AMG DB9 you will not find a single potential buyer who will now but their money elsewhere because of the 'specialness' the slower/heavier/less sonorus version had. Which is really all that matters!
Megaflow said:
Indeed. For a car forum I simply cannot believe the amount of people knocking this venture and the lack of understanding of the huge pile of cash required to develop an engine from scratch.
This is excellent news for both Aston Martin and AMG.
Exactly, how many people on the forum love the 55 Kompressor and 6.2 V8 AMG engines, I'm sure the 5.5 bi Turbo will join their legendary appeal in time but it's still a bit new at the moment.This is excellent news for both Aston Martin and AMG.
AMG build some very powerful,great sounding reliable engines this can only be a good thing for Aston Martin.
Otispunkmeyer said:
I say we can't complain about these things now. In Germany, they ( I assume) spend more money on science and engineering, their degrees are longer and probably harder, the engineering title is protected, its a prestigious job to have and has real weight behind it. Lots of clever people working in a great, well run industry. Look at the top dogs in most of the companies as well.... All Engineering and Science Doctorates/PhDs.
In the UK, if you're an engineer, the lay man thinks you'll come round and sort their leaky boiler for them. Its not a well paid profession on the whole, its not got the cachet of other professions and any old sod can call themselves and engineer. Same goes for science which I think is even less well backed (unless its global warming b
ks in which case they throw blank cheques at it). In the UK its all about banking, none jobs with the government and other business bullstters who get paid a lot of money to do nothing much of real substance. All the while Germany continue to actually turn raw materials into great products for export.
If engineering and science in this country had the same weight behind it as it does in, say, Germany, maybe our car makers wouldn't be in such a position that they have to go cap in hand to the germans for supplies to keep going.
I agree 100%, and having a degree, and a masters in mechanical engineering and now working in banking and driving an Aston Martin, I believe have some substance to comment.In the UK, if you're an engineer, the lay man thinks you'll come round and sort their leaky boiler for them. Its not a well paid profession on the whole, its not got the cachet of other professions and any old sod can call themselves and engineer. Same goes for science which I think is even less well backed (unless its global warming b
ks in which case they throw blank cheques at it). In the UK its all about banking, none jobs with the government and other business bullstters who get paid a lot of money to do nothing much of real substance. All the while Germany continue to actually turn raw materials into great products for export.If engineering and science in this country had the same weight behind it as it does in, say, Germany, maybe our car makers wouldn't be in such a position that they have to go cap in hand to the germans for supplies to keep going.
The lack of support and prestige given to uk engineers has long been a joke.
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