RE: Aston and AMG: it's official!
Discussion
MikeGalos said:
And there's little point in a company surviving if they give up what makes them worth buying to survive. (or, for that matter, Bentley during its years as a Rolls-Royce with a less ostentatious radiator - hardly something that kept the heritage of Sir Tim and the rest of the Bentley Boys going)
If Bentley hadn't gone through that period, would it still be here today?chelme said:
Viable for whom?
Aston martinchelme said:
AM risks placing itself permanently in the low volume periphery, relegating itself to Morgan territory, a quant and faintly irrelevant 'specialist'.
surely it risks that anyway if it can't access engines which meet emissions regs?J4CKO said:
I love all this empassioned debate about what engine goes under the bonnet of a car most who have posted have never and will probably never own, I suspect most owners probably dont really care as long as it goes well, doesnt break and a makes a nice noise.
I think too much brand image gets involved with engines and where they come from, as if say, peopel want to make a point but arent sure what it is, its nothing about engines in a lot of cases, its about their abstract brand impressions,
A Citroen engine is made of Slag, Rocks and "Fail"
Audi engines are made of Taste the difference Aluminium with a dash of lovely middle class leathery premiumness.
A Lambo engine (A real one) basically being some kind of musical instrument that happens to make some power whilst making its lovely noise, made of ground Titanium infused with Pavarotti oil by Castrati in the Sistine Chapel.
Chevy engines are made of old melted spurs and banjos, then they are put through a rigorous line dancing session to test them, so simple, they have only one moving part.
Aston engines, milled from a solid lump of Brass, in a shed, by blokes in blazers who look suspiciously like the major from Fawlty Towers, tested by injecting real ale and signed off by Morris dancers, actually, I think that may be Morgan.
Actually, its all pretty much pistons, valves, cranks and stuff, the real differences come from the amount of power extracted, the number of pistons and all the gubbins that run it, any major manufacturer can build pretty much any engine, its down to whether they need to, they all strip down each others efforts, Citroen could make a wailing 700 V12 if they wanted to, it is just their market segment doesnt call for it. TVR managed to make their own engine, ok, not the best example but they werent that far wide of the mark, I suspect nowadays there is more knowledge about and the problems with that engine probably wouldnt have happened, all the clever stuff nowadays is outside the oily bits.
Fantastic post! I think too much brand image gets involved with engines and where they come from, as if say, peopel want to make a point but arent sure what it is, its nothing about engines in a lot of cases, its about their abstract brand impressions,
A Citroen engine is made of Slag, Rocks and "Fail"
Audi engines are made of Taste the difference Aluminium with a dash of lovely middle class leathery premiumness.
A Lambo engine (A real one) basically being some kind of musical instrument that happens to make some power whilst making its lovely noise, made of ground Titanium infused with Pavarotti oil by Castrati in the Sistine Chapel.
Chevy engines are made of old melted spurs and banjos, then they are put through a rigorous line dancing session to test them, so simple, they have only one moving part.
Aston engines, milled from a solid lump of Brass, in a shed, by blokes in blazers who look suspiciously like the major from Fawlty Towers, tested by injecting real ale and signed off by Morris dancers, actually, I think that may be Morgan.
Actually, its all pretty much pistons, valves, cranks and stuff, the real differences come from the amount of power extracted, the number of pistons and all the gubbins that run it, any major manufacturer can build pretty much any engine, its down to whether they need to, they all strip down each others efforts, Citroen could make a wailing 700 V12 if they wanted to, it is just their market segment doesnt call for it. TVR managed to make their own engine, ok, not the best example but they werent that far wide of the mark, I suspect nowadays there is more knowledge about and the problems with that engine probably wouldnt have happened, all the clever stuff nowadays is outside the oily bits.
J4CKO said:
milled from a solid lump of Brass, in a shed, by blokes in blazers who look suspiciously like the major from Fawlty Towers, tested by injecting real ale and signed off by Morris dancers, actually, I think that may be Morgan.
Morgan have been using BMW engines for a while haven't they?Dave
Mr Whippy said:
J4CKO said:
milled from a solid lump of Brass, in a shed, by blokes in blazers who look suspiciously like the major from Fawlty Towers, tested by injecting real ale and signed off by Morris dancers, actually, I think that may be Morgan.
Morgan have been using BMW engines for a while haven't they?Dave
NGK210 said:
Megaflow said:
IanJ9375 said:
JMC1 said:
So tell me how does McLaren have their own engine which is developed and built by Ricardo cost effectively enough to sell a car at £170,000 in relatively small numbers and sell all around the world.
If McLaren can afford this why can not Aston. For me using AMG engines might make for a nice package but it is a step back whilst McLaren are moving forward.
I have not heard anyone say the McLaren engine is rubbish they should have put a Merc or BMW engine in it instead it adds to the pedigree and saleability of the McLaren as they are meeting Ferrari square on.
Ricardo developed from the Nissan race engine - not from scratchIf McLaren can afford this why can not Aston. For me using AMG engines might make for a nice package but it is a step back whilst McLaren are moving forward.
I have not heard anyone say the McLaren engine is rubbish they should have put a Merc or BMW engine in it instead it adds to the pedigree and saleability of the McLaren as they are meeting Ferrari square on.
IIRC Nissan contracted Ricardo to build a race engine, during development Nissan closed down the project, paid for the R&D spent to date, and Ricardo got the IP in the deal, which they subsequent ally sold to McLaren.
chelme said:
This smacks of lazyness on behalf of Aston Martin.
For any manufacturer to retain any long term credibility at the level they intend to sell their cars, they need to demonstrate that their cars are thoroughbreds, just like the Astons of old. In order for their cars to be considered as such, they will be expected to engineer their own powertrains. ...
Great post... not totally sure I agree with you but very well reasoned/argued.For any manufacturer to retain any long term credibility at the level they intend to sell their cars, they need to demonstrate that their cars are thoroughbreds, just like the Astons of old. In order for their cars to be considered as such, they will be expected to engineer their own powertrains. ...
I suspect what a lot of people also fail to realise is that modern engines are really just a collection of off-the-shelf parts supplied by massive multinational Teir1 suppliers, like Bosch, Denso, Federal-Mogul, Mahle etc etc etc. So an Aston engine is really just a collection of those parts put together by Aston. An AMG engine is the same parts put together by AMG. Pretty much no one makes their "own" engines these days. Even things like Blocks and heads come from Teir1 casting specialists (CosCast, G&W etc), who quite often will have done a lot of the basic design themselves.
What generally makes an engine "at home" in one particular brand of car are the following:
1) the basic architecture (V8/V12 etc)
2) The intake and exhaust tuning
3) the engine calibration
So, the bit that makes an Aston sound like an Aston isn't really the engine per say, but the parts it is surrounded by, and their layout and tuning. And those things aren't really going to change ;-)
What generally makes an engine "at home" in one particular brand of car are the following:
1) the basic architecture (V8/V12 etc)
2) The intake and exhaust tuning
3) the engine calibration
So, the bit that makes an Aston sound like an Aston isn't really the engine per say, but the parts it is surrounded by, and their layout and tuning. And those things aren't really going to change ;-)
sunsurfer said:
chelme said:
This smacks of lazyness on behalf of Aston Martin.
For any manufacturer to retain any long term credibility at the level they intend to sell their cars, they need to demonstrate that their cars are thoroughbreds, just like the Astons of old. In order for their cars to be considered as such, they will be expected to engineer their own powertrains. ...
Great post... not totally sure I agree with you but very well reasoned/argued.For any manufacturer to retain any long term credibility at the level they intend to sell their cars, they need to demonstrate that their cars are thoroughbreds, just like the Astons of old. In order for their cars to be considered as such, they will be expected to engineer their own powertrains. ...
Although Aston don't currently make their own drive train, it is a combination of Caparo and Graziano and ironically Caparo also supply to AMG
Mave said:
MikeGalos said:
And there's little point in a company surviving if they give up what makes them worth buying to survive. (or, for that matter, Bentley during its years as a Rolls-Royce with a less ostentatious radiator - hardly something that kept the heritage of Sir Tim and the rest of the Bentley Boys going)
If Bentley hadn't gone through that period, would it still be here today?Max_Torque said:
I suspect what a lot of people also fail to realise is that modern engines are really just a collection of off-the-shelf parts supplied by massive multinational Teir1 suppliers, like Bosch, Denso, Federal-Mogul, Mahle etc etc etc. So an Aston engine is really just a collection of those parts put together by Aston. An AMG engine is the same parts put together by AMG. Pretty much no one makes their "own" engines these days. Even things like Blocks and heads come from Teir1 casting specialists (CosCast, G&W etc), who quite often will have done a lot of the basic design themselves.
What generally makes an engine "at home" in one particular brand of car are the following:
1) the basic architecture (V8/V12 etc)
2) The intake and exhaust tuning
3) the engine calibration
So, the bit that makes an Aston sound like an Aston isn't really the engine per say, but the parts it is surrounded by, and their layout and tuning. And those things aren't really going to change ;-)
This was going to be my next point. My supervisor was telling me how really there isn't a car that is solely of that one company. Every car company is pretty much global, hoovering in parts and items from all kinds of suppliers from all over the world. Its a global business, not a local one.What generally makes an engine "at home" in one particular brand of car are the following:
1) the basic architecture (V8/V12 etc)
2) The intake and exhaust tuning
3) the engine calibration
So, the bit that makes an Aston sound like an Aston isn't really the engine per say, but the parts it is surrounded by, and their layout and tuning. And those things aren't really going to change ;-)
As you say, things like pistons etc come in by the crate load, sheet metal from india might be dumped in large rolls at the front door ready to be cut and stamped into shapes. Whole dash board assemblies are delivered to honda in swindon so that they can be simply picked up and bolted in place. This is how car manufacturing goes down. The plant they roll out of at the end is not much more than an assembly process. Few parts are made from scratch.
And like others have said, to the vast majority of buyers it probably matters not what is under the bonnet and who made it. I bet they could drop in a 4 cylinder turbo engine from BMW and people would still buy it because its got an AM badge and its bloody beautiful to look at. Only we would be turning our noses up at it because it doesn't have that middle England V8 soundtrack. Most of us couldn't afford one anyway so i guess it matters not what we think.
Look at the Evoque. Looks good, but its tiny and its powered by 2 boring 4 cylinder engines. But its got the badge, its got the looks and its got the celebrity endorsement. They can't make them fast enough and it would be exactly the same had the engine come from a lawnmower.
MiseryStreak said:
NGK210 said:
Megaflow said:
IanJ9375 said:
JMC1 said:
So tell me how does McLaren have their own engine which is developed and built by Ricardo cost effectively enough to sell a car at £170,000 in relatively small numbers and sell all around the world.
If McLaren can afford this why can not Aston. For me using AMG engines might make for a nice package but it is a step back whilst McLaren are moving forward.
I have not heard anyone say the McLaren engine is rubbish they should have put a Merc or BMW engine in it instead it adds to the pedigree and saleability of the McLaren as they are meeting Ferrari square on.
Ricardo developed from the Nissan race engine - not from scratchIf McLaren can afford this why can not Aston. For me using AMG engines might make for a nice package but it is a step back whilst McLaren are moving forward.
I have not heard anyone say the McLaren engine is rubbish they should have put a Merc or BMW engine in it instead it adds to the pedigree and saleability of the McLaren as they are meeting Ferrari square on.
IIRC Nissan contracted Ricardo to build a race engine, during development Nissan closed down the project, paid for the R&D spent to date, and Ricardo got the IP in the deal, which they subsequent ally sold to McLaren.
Ricardo were also commissioned by VW/Bugatti to design and build the 7spd DCT for the Veyron.
Mclaren aren't quite in the same position as Aston Martin. Ricardo were given a brief of what Macca wanted and they produced it in partnership. No shareholding or exertion of control by Ricardo.
The arrangement hasn't stopped Mclaren doing great business... It's a shame Aston for whatever reason couldn't do something similar but they need to get more differentiation between models. I guess funding/independence doesn't allow for own engine and model development.
MikeGalos said:
Which is my point. Is today's Bentley in any way related to what W.O. Bentley created or is it just the badge attached to something unrelated?
Nope, but I bet that's true of any brand that's been in business for a similar length of time. Does that mean businesses should give up once they can no longer remain viable? Or should they evolve with the times?MikeGalos said:
rs200evo said:
Yes, I'm sure when presented with a choice by the dealer when you are about to plonk down 100k, such as
'Would Sir/Madam like their Vantage with the
420BHP/343LB FT engine, 21MPG and 7 speed single clutch gearbox, or the
550BHP/531LB FT engine, 29 MPG and 7 speed MCT auto"
the original is going to be the best seller :/
If Sir/Madam really wanted to buy based on BHP and Ft/Lb and fuel mileage they'd buy a C7 Corvette tweaked by a tuner like Callaway or Sir/Madam would just buy their choice of AMG Mercedes and be done with it.'Would Sir/Madam like their Vantage with the
420BHP/343LB FT engine, 21MPG and 7 speed single clutch gearbox, or the
550BHP/531LB FT engine, 29 MPG and 7 speed MCT auto"
the original is going to be the best seller :/
People do NOT buy an Aston Martin because it's the highest performance car (it isn't and hasn't been close in years) nor that it's state of the art (it isn't and hasn't been close in years) or because it offers great performance value (it never has). They buy it because it's PERCIEVED (rightly or wrongly) as THE elegant high performance car that reflects a certain old world concern for craftsmanship and because it's James Bond's car.
The reality may be that the days of craftsmen with little hammers beating panels over wooden templates and tailors holding needles in their teeth while they stitch hides together are long gone but that perception has remained and has been the aura surrounding the brand. This move kills most of what's left of it and now moves Aston Martin to directly competing on features, performance and price with Ferrari and Maserati and Porsche and Jaguar and Lamborghini and AMG Mercedes and BMW M-Series and Cadillac V-Series.
And a battle of price/specs/reliability should not be a happy thought for Aston Martin since that's a battle they can't realistically even hope to win.
Edited by MikeGalos on Thursday 25th July 20:14
mnk303 said:
Merc could certainly do with a posh end car like vw and Bentey and BMW and RR
Coming late to this topic, and stepping around the engine debate debris, this is an interesting point. With the failure of Maybach to do a RR or Bentley for Mercedes, I wonder if the next S class (ie in 6 or 7 years time) will be accompanied by a Lagonda taking care of the stratospheric end of the market? Mercedes did state when they wound up Maybach production that the model just launched will stretch further up market than before, but they must look at VAG and BMW's premium brands' success with envy. Mercedes got a big shock from the total failure of Maybach. Because they can get more for their top end cars than Audi or BMW they thought they could just resurrect a forgotten brand and stick it on a stretched old model S Class with a luxurious (but too German) interior.
With Rolls Royce and Bentley taken, what other English luxury brands are there?
With Rolls Royce and Bentley taken, what other English luxury brands are there?
Zod said:
Mercedes got a big shock from the total failure of Maybach. Because they can get more for their top end cars than Audi or BMW they thought they could just resurrect a forgotten brand and stick it on a stretched old model S Class with a luxurious (but too German) interior.
With Rolls Royce and Bentley taken, what other English luxury brands are there?
Well, could they stick Vanden Plas on a 2002 E Class?With Rolls Royce and Bentley taken, what other English luxury brands are there?
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