RE: Aston and AMG: it's official!

[Cerbieherts]

Krikkit said:

It's not. I didn't say the above were exempt, I'd just rather see Aston develop its own engines.

The V8 in the Vantage may be based on the Jaguar AJ-V8, but have since pretty much re-developed the whole thing. The V12 is the same thing - based on two Ford V6's many years ago, it was developed solely for Aston, and has been reworked completely since then.

Edited by Krikkit on Thursday 25th July 12:39

The v12 was NOT based on "two v6's". That v12 engine was designed in the states, and shares nothing with the often misquoted mondeo engine platform. Aston received it's first engines which were grafted into I6 DB7 development bucks in late 1998 (these were known as "CP1 development cars"). Aston martin farmed ALL the engine development out to Cosworth engineering, only the engine's electrical calibration was carried out in-house. Cars were taken to Dunton for rolling road work and the rest of the engineering work was done in-house, by a small group of engineers and mechanics. The last engine work Aston did in house was on the last incarnation of the Tadek-Marek V8 fitted to the LM600, then the engine build line was pulled out when the last LM600 rolled off the line and the new Vanquish production line was put in.The engineering on the V8 vantage engine was also outsourced. Works service still build factory upgraded engines and historic stuff...

[Digger]

When do we predict we'll see these new AMG'd Astons rolling off the production lines?

[mikey k]

NGK210 said:

True, but Aston is really, really, really strapped for cash, eg: it's using 'leftover' 6-speed ZF gearboxes - everyone else has been using the 8-speeder for around 3 years - the Vantage's V8 is a bored and stroked version of an old Jag 4.2, Aston's column stalks are refugees from Ford's early '00s/X-type parts bin, etc.

Meanwhile, McLaren was savvy to use its start-up budget, which includes much investment from the Middle East, to produce a turbo V8 that can be used in all of its models, albeit in varying states of tune/boost.

Similarly, maybe AMG is going to supply Aston with a 'basic' twin-turbo 4.0-litre V8, which can be mapped for 500, 600 and 700bhp?

Not that strapped after Investindustrial's £150M injection this year
The Jag 4.2 genes have long since been "modified" out of all recognition, also jag are still using and iteration of it now!
AM are moving away from the 6MT boxes, the newer Vantages (V8 & V12) us the 7 speed Graziano box akin to the Maser & Ferrari boxes
ATEOD ALL the niche cars are going to have to use parts from mainstream cars and other manufactures AM are no different
The do have the VH platform which they are very unlikely to bin in the near future
So as you say they are likely to take an FI AMG V8 (and later a V12?) that can easily be mapped for what ever power they want for that model.
From my experience of AM don't expect this to result in a sudden leap in BHP outputs on the next models
Time will tell!

[DonkeyApple]

Megaflow said:

They simply cannot afford it. To develop an engine costs hundreds of millions of pounds, to recover that cost over the tiny number of units Aston Martin are going to sell is not viable.

Exactly. When you are spending all your money on debt financing and sucking huge amount out via the Board then something has to give.

[Alex]

Jaguar F-Type for me.

[dom9]

A V8 Vantage with the old NA V8 AMG engine from the CLK Black - perfect!

This is great news!

[Chris_VRS]

Finally the Vantage may inherit a decent engine!...this deal appears very good for AM, not so sure what Mercedes get out of it though!?

[NGK210]

FFS! Enough already with the whinging about turbos - PH is fast becoming a refuge for Luddites.

Let's be happy that:

a) Aston has a future

b) Its engines will be competitive in terms of power and efficiency

c) Aston has hooked-up with an engine-builder that has pedigree and joie de vivre

Be happy!

Edited by NGK210 on Thursday 25th July 15:21

[mark3man]

Krikkit said:

The V12 is the same thing - based on two Ford V6's many years ago, it was developed solely for Aston, and has been reworked completely since then.

Edited by Krikkit on Thursday 25th July 12:39

Err, no. It was a Lincoln engine that never got into production.
The "two V6s" tag came because it borrowed Zetec technology.

[HighwayStar]

Megaflow said:

Krikkit said:

JMC1 said:

...words.

Agree completely - I wouldn't like the idea of buying an Aston with a borrowed Mercedes engine, even though AMG make some of the best units out there at the moment.

Err, so how is it any different to an Aston with a borrowed Jaguar engine?

Or:
1) A Rolls Royce with a borrowed BMW engine?
2) A Mini with a borrowed Peugeot engine?
3) A Range Rover with a borrowed Ford engine?
4) A Pagani with a borrowed AMG Engine?
5) A Lamborginihi with a borrowed Audi engine?
6) etc etc etc...

JonRB said:

Although I can see the economic benefit to Aston Martin, I can't help feeling a little sad at the news. Part of the allure of an Aston is the fact that they have a long history of handbuilt in-house engines. An outsourced customer engine, even from someone as respected as AMG, just seems slightly less special. And, yes, I am well aware that Pagani uses AMG engines.

Those handbuilt engines that have been mostly built at Ford Bridgend since the mid 90's?

Fantastic news for Aston. Despite the press release putting a gloss on it, I'm not sure there is much more in it for AMG than simply selling engines, etc and making money, not that that's a bad thing!

Edited by Megaflow on Thursday 25th July 12:17

Edited by Megaflow on Thursday 25th July 12:18

Bentley got everything when VW bought them, factory engines, the lot!
BMW got the Rolls Royce name...
The MINI engine is a BMW/Peugeot joint development NOT a Peugeot engine.
The Gallardos engine is a Lamborghini engine developed with Audi money after the takeover. Audi then based their V10s on the Lambo engine and put it in their models. They aren't simple transplanted Lambo engines.
The Hyuaras AMG unit is bespoke, not off the shelf.
I don't image Astons engines will be simply engines used in AMG Mercs...
Saying all that I'd have preferred they'd produced there own engines, self sustaining and all that, but needs must etc..
I'm not a big fan AMGs or the AMG sound but get why others are.

[ChrisPap]

JMC1 said:

So tell me how does McLaren have their own engine which is developed and built by Ricardo cost effectively enough to sell a car at £170,000 in relatively small numbers and sell all around the world.
If McLaren can afford this why can not Aston. For me using AMG engines might make for a nice package but it is a step back whilst McLaren are moving forward.
I have not heard anyone say the McLaren engine is rubbish they should have put a Merc or BMW engine in it instead it adds to the pedigree and saleability of the McLaren as they are meeting Ferrari square on.

+1

It's a big deal to have your own engines, or worst case, engines from an upmarket parent company. The oft quoted Pagani, well, like the McLaren F1 only ever existed with a bought in engine. If either car had started with their own engine, and then after some time bought in an engine, it would be a loss of pedigre, no matter if the new engine was better.

I have a V12 Aston, and a TVR with their own Speed6, and an Alfa with the last Arese V6 before GM blocks. I love them all and they are more special for having their own engines.

I know Ford paid for the initial V12 development, and assemble it in one of their plants, but it's actually very different inside and out than the v6's its supposed to be welded out of.

It's sad for me to see Aston lose some of their pedigree. I had hoped at least the V8 would be replaced by a turbo 6 with the same power in the new Vantage. I just hope the AMG v8 can be made to not sound like a wet fart. I hate that noise!

Hopefully they find time to put a decent gearbox into the new Vanquish and make a good number of them before the V12 is lost! That'll be a future classic!

[mark3man]

No one yet mentioned one of Britain's most successful car manufacturers which NEVER made it's own engines.
Morgan.
Currently uses BMW as supplier.
All these companies (VAG, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, GM) can find a way to make shortish runs using existing components. Pure economics - would be nice to make 10,000 units exactly the same all day every day, but look at any car makers catalogue and there are lots of different engine set ups available.

[DB9VolanteDriver]

JMC1 said:

So tell me how does McLaren have their own engine which is developed and built by Ricardo cost effectively enough to sell a car at £170,000 in relatively small numbers and sell all around the world.
If McLaren can afford this why can not Aston. For me using AMG engines might make for a nice package but it is a step back whilst McLaren are moving forward.
I have not heard anyone say the McLaren engine is rubbish they should have put a Merc or BMW engine in it instead it adds to the pedigree and saleability of the McLaren as they are meeting Ferrari square on.

Yes, yes, and yes. If Aston wants to continue to offer themselves up as an alternative to the likes of Ferrari, Lambo, etc., then they need their OWN engines. Not one from a mass market competitor.

[355f]

with experience of ownership i think the vantage was the car with the most badge.

The largely redundant reworked jag/ford unit sounded good but never delivered- with a heavy thirst. On the convertible ( mercedes make the roof mechanism) Aston even manage to make that unreliable with the inclusion of their own elecronic modules which are a volvo/ford mix that fail to communicate on a regular basis.

Then there is the bubling paint issue that so many owners have experienced on very young cars.

AMG power is agood thing, all they need now is to outsource the manufacture to produce a reliable quality product

[Zod]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

JMC1 said:

So tell me how does McLaren have their own engine which is developed and built by Ricardo cost effectively enough to sell a car at £170,000 in relatively small numbers and sell all around the world.
If McLaren can afford this why can not Aston. For me using AMG engines might make for a nice package but it is a step back whilst McLaren are moving forward.
I have not heard anyone say the McLaren engine is rubbish they should have put a Merc or BMW engine in it instead it adds to the pedigree and saleability of the McLaren as they are meeting Ferrari square on.

Yes, yes, and yes. If Aston wants to continue to offer themselves up as an alternative to the likes of Ferrari, Lambo, etc., then they need their OWN engines. Not one from a mass market competitor.

Ferrari and Lamborghini are both subsidiaries of much larger groups.

[loudlashadjuster]

soad said:

mackie1 said:

Does this mean though that mid-range cars (DB9, Vanquish) will ditch the V12 and only the hyper model will get one?

I suspect the V12 will disappear altogether.
Currently, Mercedes Benz only offer it on the S600, S65 AMG and CL65 AMG models.

x65 AMG models must sell in tiny numbers, the S600 maybe slightly more, so maybe that's one of the benefits to Mercedes/AMG for the tie up?

After all, maybe selling another 500-1000 V12s per annum makes continuing their development worthwhile for M-B?

There aren't many (any?) other manufacturers in the world who could even contemplate buying V12s in those numbers.

[NGK210]

mikey k said:

NGK210 said:

True, but Aston is really, really, really strapped for cash, eg: it's using 'leftover' 6-speed ZF gearboxes - everyone else has been using the 8-speeder for around 3 years - the Vantage's V8 is a bored and stroked version of an old Jag 4.2, Aston's column stalks are refugees from Ford's early '00s/X-type parts bin, etc.

Meanwhile, McLaren was savvy to use its start-up budget, which includes much investment from the Middle East, to produce a turbo V8 that can be used in all of its models, albeit in varying states of tune/boost.

Similarly, maybe AMG is going to supply Aston with a 'basic' twin-turbo 4.0-litre V8, which can be mapped for 500, 600 and 700bhp?

Not that strapped after Investindustrial's £150M injection this year
The Jag 4.2 genes have long since been "modified" out of all recognition, also jag are still using and iteration of it now!
AM are moving away from the 6MT boxes, the newer Vantages (V8 & V12) us the 7 speed Graziano box akin to the Maser & Ferrari boxes
ATEOD ALL the niche cars are going to have to use parts from mainstream cars and other manufactures AM are no different
The do have the VH platform which they are very unlikely to bin in the near future
So as you say they are likely to take an FI AMG V8 (and later a V12?) that can easily be mapped for what ever power they want for that model.
From my experience of AM don't expect this to result in a sudden leap in BHP outputs on the next models
Time will tell!

With respect, £150m is relatively poke-all for a car company that's been deprived of a useful R&D budget and run on a make-do-and-mend basis since former owner Ford's financial meltdown in the early-/mid-'00s.

(And isn't the 7-speed Graziano 'box an 'old' single-clutch, whereas Ferrari is now using the newer twin-clutch version?)

But as you say, "time will tell", and I hope Aston starts to kick derrieres, once again

[alotusian]

5%...;)
very vell don Herr Dr. Bez.
Vatch out for Swabians with a Porsche background and very gud german Industrie Konnections

[Davey S2]

Krikkit said:

JMC1 said:

...words.

Agree completely - I wouldn't like the idea of buying an Aston with a borrowed Mercedes engine, even though AMG make some of the best units out there at the moment.

I assume you wouldn't want a McLaren F1 as it's got a BMW engine then?

[Megaflow]

IanJ9375 said:

JMC1 said:

So tell me how does McLaren have their own engine which is developed and built by Ricardo cost effectively enough to sell a car at £170,000 in relatively small numbers and sell all around the world.
If McLaren can afford this why can not Aston. For me using AMG engines might make for a nice package but it is a step back whilst McLaren are moving forward.
I have not heard anyone say the McLaren engine is rubbish they should have put a Merc or BMW engine in it instead it adds to the pedigree and saleability of the McLaren as they are meeting Ferrari square on.

Ricardo developed from the Nissan race engine - not from scratch

I knew it was developed from something, but could not recall what.

IIRC Nissan contracted Ricardo to build a race engine, during development Nissan closed down the project, paid for the R&D spent to date, and Ricardo got the IP in the deal, which they subsequent ally sold to McLaren.