RE: Ferrari F12: Review
Discussion
Dagnut said:
This is pistonheads? 3 pages of comments, half of them negative.."what is it for" really??? wtf is this site for?
Well said. Here's a tidy Autocar vid showing what the F12 'is for' - a whole heap of bonkers fun on twisty backroads, that's 'what it's for':
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-ferrari-f...
Just don't dig the criticism of the looks. Have you actually seen one in the flesh? Its gorgeous!
This car is the last of a breed, I really can't see a n/a RWD car ever topping this before everything goes over to hybrid.
...and I agree with the previous comments, so many people are so negative about everything on Ph these days I've been giving it a wide berth lately...shame.
This car is the last of a breed, I really can't see a n/a RWD car ever topping this before everything goes over to hybrid.
...and I agree with the previous comments, so many people are so negative about everything on Ph these days I've been giving it a wide berth lately...shame.
bashful said:
My question is this: what's the F12 *for*?
Seems to me:
The LaFfer will have to be quicker on track & be the technology summit.
The FF will probably be a more relaxed GT.
The Cali will be a better cruiser / trophy-wife car.
The 458 might be quicker point-to-point in the real world.
Not being a Ferrari customer demographic, I don't see how the F12 fits into the range - perhaps that just emphasises the quality of the other cars? And, as has been pointed out, the prospective F12 owner probably doesn't need a single does-it-all car.
Three of your four are naff.Seems to me:
The LaFfer will have to be quicker on track & be the technology summit.
The FF will probably be a more relaxed GT.
The Cali will be a better cruiser / trophy-wife car.
The 458 might be quicker point-to-point in the real world.
Not being a Ferrari customer demographic, I don't see how the F12 fits into the range - perhaps that just emphasises the quality of the other cars? And, as has been pointed out, the prospective F12 owner probably doesn't need a single does-it-all car.
A non-red, non-white F12 is not naff. That's what it is for.
Bezza1969 said:
Just don't dig the criticism of the looks. Have you actually seen one in the flesh? Its gorgeous!
This car is the last of a breed, I really can't see a n/a RWD car ever topping this before everything goes over to hybrid.
...and I agree with the previous comments, so many people are so negative about everything on Ph these days I've been giving it a wide berth lately...shame.
Totally do not agree.This car is the last of a breed, I really can't see a n/a RWD car ever topping this before everything goes over to hybrid.
...and I agree with the previous comments, so many people are so negative about everything on Ph these days I've been giving it a wide berth lately...shame.
The car does have strange rear styling. But that is not the main issue I have with the car - this car depresses me a little.
Why? Because making a hyper fast car is all so "meh". If you want to go fast it is not that hard. What makes me sad about this car is that it represents a moment when Ferrari ( that provider of some of the most iconic cars in history ) gave in to the power battles and made a car which is hyper fast, let lacking in feel. You can tell that even Harris, while he is rightly gobsmacked by the sheer performance, has also commented strongly on the dull steering and sheer effortlessness of the car.
This car is made for people who find driving traditional supercars too difficult. The world these days is made up of people who don't like cars with stuff clutches, manual gearboxes, noise and vibration, compromises that sacrifice ease of use. They want a car with bragging rights that is easy to drive around the roads of Dubai. So Ferrari catered for them.
There is a large part of me that wishes Ferrari would go back a few decades a produce a new Dino. Something lightweight, something with feel in its steering and character. Instead we get an upmarket, ultra posh Nissan GTR. Which is a shame, because that market is already covered. I want Ferrari to make cars the driver has to DRIVE, not cars that just need pointing and steering.
The target owner of the F12 will buy it for its bragging rights. Buy it because it is the latest, baddest, fastest Ferrari. They won't buy it for the same reasons people used to buy Ferrari.
IMO
toppstuff said:
They won't buy it for the same reasons people used to buy Ferrari.
IMO
The Dino was never badged as a Ferrari, it was a failed attempt to crate a Ferrari sub brand. I'd say Ferrari have always offered (nearly) the fastest car available with the handling to exploit that performance, not a Lotus speed through lightness approach.IMO
There is complete emotional and sensual detachment from the controls on the F12. Ferrari has being going this way for some time, but driving the car on the road can feel a touch like being in a simulator. The steering is very fast but doesn't offer any tangible sensation of connecting the driver to the road, the brake pedal is pretty numb at road speeds because the carbon ceramic discs are operating so far below their preferred temperatures and, perhaps most tellingly, the noises it makes are a little contrived.
- ouch!
- ouch!
toppstuff said:
I want Ferrari to make cars the driver has to DRIVE, not cars that just need pointing and steering.
So that they can be consigned to history as a result of a class action lawsuit brought about by those same super wealthy customers that bought it pranging it as their experience/talent didn't match the danger of driving said car in the fashion you're on about...? Ferrari cater to their clients - the market has spoken, live with it. Even if you are in the position to afford one, no-one in the market for such a car really cares any more.
toppstuff said:
The target owner of the F12 will buy it for its bragging rights. Buy it because it is the latest, baddest, fastest Ferrari. They won't buy it for the same reasons people used to buy Ferrari.
Some people have always bought Ferrari's for bragging rights (just they same as the bought Aston DB5/6s, Jaguar E-Types, Lamborghini Muiras, et al)! Do you honestly believe that a Daytona for example was the last word in handling for it's era? Seasoned race drivers drivers complained bitterly about the steering, which was probably a combination of nose-heavy weight distribution, stability-enhancing steering alignment and wide tires with tall sidewalls - not to mention the lack of power-assisted steering handled by a steering wheel that was simply too big (with caster that caused trememdous kickback). The turning circle was pretty crap too...
THAT is why Ferrari make the F12 the way they do, for many of those owners who can afford one want to actually drive it every day (you know, like pointing and steering, sitting in traffic, not worrying about potential reliability issues and in air-conditioned comfort) without the compromises of a so-called "drivers car" but with all the everyday mod-cons we've all become used to in modern motoring.
Off with those rose-tinted spectacles methinks.
mrclav said:
THAT is why Ferrari make the F12 the way they do, for many of those owners who can afford one want to actually drive it every day (you know, like pointing and steering, sitting in traffic, not worrying about potential reliability issues and in air-conditioned comfort) without the compromises of a so-called "drivers car" but with all the everyday mod-cons we've all become used to in modern motoring.
Off with those rose-tinted spectacles methinks.
Nope, I don't buy it.Off with those rose-tinted spectacles methinks.
Lets not pretend that these cars are daily drivers. Looks at the classifieds. Face the fact that these are cars that are not driven regularly - their universally low mileages tell us this. Even 550's , that modern classic now many years old, all seem to have mileages less than 50/60k. 430's have mileages in the teens, many sub 10k. Owners do NOT drive these cars everyday. And if the rare owners that do have their trousers pulled down when they come to sell.
What's the point of a special occasion car that only has one trick - going exceptionally fast? Easy to steer, easy to drive , challenge free driving.
The F12 is a one trick pony.
toppstuff said:
mrclav said:
THAT is why Ferrari make the F12 the way they do, for many of those owners who can afford one want to actually drive it every day (you know, like pointing and steering, sitting in traffic, not worrying about potential reliability issues and in air-conditioned comfort) without the compromises of a so-called "drivers car" but with all the everyday mod-cons we've all become used to in modern motoring.
Off with those rose-tinted spectacles methinks.
Nope, I don't buy it.Off with those rose-tinted spectacles methinks.
Lets not pretend that these cars are daily drivers. Looks at the classifieds. Face the fact that these are cars that are not driven regularly - their universally low mileages tell us this. Even 550's , that modern classic now many years old, all seem to have mileages less than 50/60k. 430's have mileages in the teens, many sub 10k. Owners do NOT drive these cars everyday. And if the rare owners that do have their trousers pulled down when they come to sell.
What's the point of a special occasion car that only has one trick - going exceptionally fast? Easy to steer, easy to drive , challenge free driving.
The F12 is a one trick pony.
They make them like they do because that's what the market wants. You don't understand it but you aren't in the market so why should ferrari care what you think?
E38Ross said:
Maybe you should tell ferrari this, you obviously have done more market research that they have and clearly know better than a multi million pound company! I'd suggest phoning them first thing tomorrow morning where they're going wrong.
They make them like they do because that's what the market wants. You don't understand it but you aren't in the market so why should ferrari care what you think?
It is what the market wants. You are right. The market is moving to places and to prospective drivers who can't drive a manual, don't like or understand why cars should be challenging to drive, don't see the reason or have the inclination to learn how to get the best from a car. They want power and prestige in a car as easy to drive as a Yaris. They make them like they do because that's what the market wants. You don't understand it but you aren't in the market so why should ferrari care what you think?
I don't blame Ferrari for recognising that is the market reality. Good luck to them.
But I'm not going to pretend that Ferrari are going in a direction I approve of. I'd like to see them also make simpler, more joyful, more connected cars. But I don't think I will. And that's why it is sad. It is the end of an era.
toppstuff said:
They won't buy it for the same reasons people used to buy Ferrari.
When was this exactly? People bought Ferrari's for driving feel and not for performance? This lacks feel because its necessary for a car with this much performance to be set up like that or they'll all end up in being spun any time there is a surface change or any minute change in grip.
probably 1 person in 10,000 could drive this car as it is flat out..probably 1 person in a million could drive it 9/10ths set up they way you would like it...that just the plain reality of a 700hp RWD monster which also has to be a road car in some sense.
"The brakes are simply immense, but four hot laps are your limit, even with the active brake cooling flaps open."
As one other PH member has mentioned this but no comments on it. How can the ceramic brakes only last 4 hot laps? I thought these type of brakes were suppose to be near fade proof?
Surely if you are spending squillions on a car like this you want your brakes to last longer than 4 hot laps without beginning to fade. I don't know maybe it's just me that doesn't get it.
As one other PH member has mentioned this but no comments on it. How can the ceramic brakes only last 4 hot laps? I thought these type of brakes were suppose to be near fade proof?
Surely if you are spending squillions on a car like this you want your brakes to last longer than 4 hot laps without beginning to fade. I don't know maybe it's just me that doesn't get it.
"Driving the F12 on the road in the UK is nothing more than a lesson in restraint. In most very, very fast cars the judicious, experienced driver can find moments to explore those capabilities without exposing themselves to too much trouble. The F12 exists outside those boundaries and in a zone I have only really experienced before driving loopy 800hp GT-Rs. It is so fast, the numbers accrue so vividly that it really is impossible to experience the full glory on the public road. That's a sad admission, but it's true."
What a completely pointless car
What a completely pointless car
Ceramic brakes that fade after 4 hot laps (on a track day you'll be disapointed with that), a car too fast and shouty for the road...at what point is it just not worth it, even if you have all the money in the world, do you really want this?
It looks lovely...but not THAT lovely?! I'd have a Zonda or a 458 or something that looks achingly beautiful if it was as pointless as this thing.
Maybe its just the way the article is written, maybe its me. Maybe I am just not the demographic so who cares.
It looks lovely...but not THAT lovely?! I'd have a Zonda or a 458 or something that looks achingly beautiful if it was as pointless as this thing.
Maybe its just the way the article is written, maybe its me. Maybe I am just not the demographic so who cares.
0a said:
"Driving the F12 on the road in the UK is nothing more than a lesson in restraint. In most very, very fast cars the judicious, experienced driver can find moments to explore those capabilities without exposing themselves to too much trouble. The F12 exists outside those boundaries and in a zone I have only really experienced before driving loopy 800hp GT-Rs. It is so fast, the numbers accrue so vividly that it really is impossible to experience the full glory on the public road. That's a sad admission, but it's true."
What a completely pointless car
Name one supercar made past 1995 that you can experience in its full glory on the road? Can you fully exploit even an M3? no of course not ...no where near. What a completely pointless car
What a pointless critique of any modern supercar.
Dagnut said:
0a said:
"Driving the F12 on the road in the UK is nothing more than a lesson in restraint. In most very, very fast cars the judicious, experienced driver can find moments to explore those capabilities without exposing themselves to too much trouble. The F12 exists outside those boundaries and in a zone I have only really experienced before driving loopy 800hp GT-Rs. It is so fast, the numbers accrue so vividly that it really is impossible to experience the full glory on the public road. That's a sad admission, but it's true."
What a completely pointless car
Name one supercar made past 1995 that you can experience in its full glory on the road? Can you fully exploit even an M3? no of course not ...no where near. What a completely pointless car
What a pointless critique of any modern supercar.
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