RE: Alfa Romeo 4C: Review
Discussion
trashbat said:
So it's a good car. I get it. However, I think it'd be much better if it had a great big V8. It'd have to be bigger and heavier but that's fine. They could use an engine from Ferrari, and borrow some other bits from Maserati. Hopefully make less of them too, as 3500 a year lets every peasant have at least a dozen. Also it's late - if we could have had it about six years ago, I'd have bought one. But I won't now, because of what a disappointment it's been. Alfa never make what I want. Maybe if they do a Spider. But still no, because it'll rust.
Sounds like what you really want is an 8C...GS88 said:
Would the 4C be more desirable if it had a manual gearbox?
I personally don't think so and I normally despise the idea of any form of auto box, but this is a ground up 21st century sports car so it's all part of the package IMO. Nostalgia can be great, but sometimes we petrolheads need to move with the times IMO...I put the phone call in to my mate who is an alfa salesman yesterday & he's getting back to me with more info today 
Those who follow the readers cars section will know I have form for buying left field & over priced (
) but I need to know more about storage space first so don't get too excited.
I'm guessing that there is no front boot storage & the boot at the back won't take enough luggage for two helmets & a weeks worth of clothes at the ring
Those who follow the readers cars section will know I have form for buying left field & over priced (
) but I need to know more about storage space first so don't get too excited.I'm guessing that there is no front boot storage & the boot at the back won't take enough luggage for two helmets & a weeks worth of clothes at the ring
GS88 said:
Would the 4C be more desirable if it had a manual gearbox?
To me yes...... but like 95% of people on here I won't be buying one new so it's irrelevant.Will be interested to see the full Autocar road test with regards to real weight and performance and also interested to hear one giving it the beans to see how Alfa have tuned the sound.
While initially I thought V6 NA engine/manual 'box would have been better, I appreciate that Alfa haven't just gone up against Porsche. Other than the Evora, which I think is a bit more expensive, there isn't much between the Elise/Exige and the Cayman, so probably a god nice to pitch it in.
Roma101 said:
otolith said:
Audi RS5 - 33% more expensive
BMW M3 Coupe - 22% more expensive
Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe - 27% more expensive
Lotus Evora - 17% more expensive
Corvette Z06 - 47% more expensive
Audi TT RS+ - 9% more expensive
Porsche Cayman R - no longer made
So the TT is the only car close on price, and it's nowhere close to the Alfa in desirability IMO.
M3 is no longer made. New M4 will be even more expensive. I wouldn't classify RS5 and C63 as sports cars. Questions over TT's status too.BMW M3 Coupe - 22% more expensive
Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe - 27% more expensive
Lotus Evora - 17% more expensive
Corvette Z06 - 47% more expensive
Audi TT RS+ - 9% more expensive
Porsche Cayman R - no longer made
So the TT is the only car close on price, and it's nowhere close to the Alfa in desirability IMO.
As mentioned previously, I think the Elise/Exige is the best comparison. Time will tell if there is a market in between the Elise/Exige and the Boxster/Cayman.
You have to ask the question: are there very few or no competitors to the Alfa because they've spotted a gap the others have missed or, have the others decided there is no niche capable of making a profit for such a vehicle?
I appreciate Alfa's guts in putting this to market but, in a time when their mainstream sales are plummeting, it seems a vanity project without much of a point.
I appreciate Alfa's guts in putting this to market but, in a time when their mainstream sales are plummeting, it seems a vanity project without much of a point.
Shame hey couldn't have put a busso V6 in there with not much in the way of silencing. would have sounded glorious and have some engine bay pron to gawp at as well. the busso was a alloy block so surely not that much heavier than a I-4 with all the turbo gubbins attached?
Guess emissions regs have killed that idea though
Guess emissions regs have killed that idea though
lufbramatt said:
Shame hey couldn't have put a busso V6 in there with not much in the way of silencing. would have sounded glorious and have some engine bay pron to gawp at as well. the busso was a alloy block so surely not that much heavier than a I-4 with all the turbo gubbins attached?
The SOHC version of the Busso is well over 150kg dry without ancillaries. In 24 valve form, wet with all the bits needed to make it go, I'm sure you'd be looking at over a quarter of a tonne. I doubt the I4 weighs more than 150kg in running form. I'm sure they could have engineered the car to take the extra weight, but "just over a tonne" doesn't look anywhere near as good on the spec sheet as "under 900kg".
I can't get on with it at all. The initial recipe was good but in the end I think the engine is wrong, the styling overwrought and caught between markets in terms of what it wants to be.
One thing that always bothered me was the quoted weight. Italians always use dry weights, which are a marketing ploy and used to inveigle pages of magazines with headline figures. The best example is the F40's quoted 1100kg weight, which has become an (untrue) legend. I cannot believe that the quoted 'wet' weight of the 4C is only 30kg more than the dry weight. Can someone stick it on a weighbridge, please? Fair play to them if it's less than a ton but I only ever see dry weight as means of deception.
One thing that always bothered me was the quoted weight. Italians always use dry weights, which are a marketing ploy and used to inveigle pages of magazines with headline figures. The best example is the F40's quoted 1100kg weight, which has become an (untrue) legend. I cannot believe that the quoted 'wet' weight of the 4C is only 30kg more than the dry weight. Can someone stick it on a weighbridge, please? Fair play to them if it's less than a ton but I only ever see dry weight as means of deception.
LongLiveTazio said:
I cannot believe that the quoted 'wet' weight of the 4C is only 30kg more than the dry weight.
Sounds about right running on fumes. It wont have more than 10kg of oil between engine and gearbox or more than 20kg of coolant. There's no refrigerant or power steering fluid and hydraulic fluid won't weigh much. If you spec air conditioning and fill the tank with fuel I'm sure you'll be looking at over a tonne, though.
kambites said:
Sounds about right running on fumes. It wont have more than 10kg of oil between engine and gearbox or more than 20kg of coolant. There's no refrigerant or power steering fluid and hydraulic fluid won't weigh much.
If you spec air conditioning and fill the tank with fuel I'm sure you'll be looking at over a tonne, though.
But this is it, it's a ridiculous figure because you start adding things on immediately to try and guess showroom weight. I didn't realise air con was an option, but if it is then everyone will spec it and air con units are heavy - about, what, 30kg? But the fuel tank isn't large so it really shouldn't be over a ton with half a tank. I just always object to dry weights, Fiat group lie through their teeth about what their cars weigh and I haven't seen evidence that they'll change. If you spec air conditioning and fill the tank with fuel I'm sure you'll be looking at over a tonne, though.
I found it sad during the 12C/458 comparisons for instance that McLaren's honesty in weights for each trim level was up against a 'quoted' dry weight. Happens every time there's a comparison involving Ferrari/Maserati/etc. and certain journalists deliberately either keep purporting the lie for whatever reason or ignore the truth.
I would guess an Elise SC will be lighter on a weighbridge and for me is by far the more desirable car in every way.
Air con could easily be more than 30kg; the Elise's air con setup weighs about that and is completely rubbish.
ETA: I think weigh-bridges will show demo cars to be within 50kg of a tonne one way or the other, which is still commendably light by modern standards.
ETA: I think weigh-bridges will show demo cars to be within 50kg of a tonne one way or the other, which is still commendably light by modern standards.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 21st September 12:27
10 Pence Short said:
You have to ask the question: are there very few or no competitors to the Alfa because they've spotted a gap the others have missed or, have the others decided there is no niche capable of making a profit for such a vehicle?
I appreciate Alfa's guts in putting this to market but, in a time when their mainstream sales are plummeting, it seems a vanity project without much of a point.
It's an old fashioned halo model, much like the NSX used to be. It's also a far braver and more modern take on the idea of a halo model than the 8C was. Beautiful as that car was to behold, by all accounts it was actually quite rubbish to drive. They could easily have just rebadged another Ferrari or Maserati, ala Audi R8, so I have to commend them for making a car for the times, not an dinosaur destined only for collectors. It also serves the purpose of getting Alfa new headlines that the ageing Mito and forgotten Giulietta can't garner anymore (when did you even see them in a group test lately), and keeps Alfa's image of being sporty and youthful in people's minds until Marchionne stops messing about with the Giulia and actually builds it!I appreciate Alfa's guts in putting this to market but, in a time when their mainstream sales are plummeting, it seems a vanity project without much of a point.
Edited by Ali_T on Saturday 21st September 12:33
lufbramatt said:
Guess emissions regs have killed that idea though
Well, that and the weight as signore Kambites kindly explained. Emissions wise I think they just about managed to get it past EU4 for the very last ones they put in the 166 and GT. Totally OT now 
but these are both so cheap now that I'm seriously tempted. Think the GT 3.2 at least will become a minor classic with time, last Busso engined car, nice looks, good enough to drive not that many made...john_r said:
kambites said:
john_r said:
Too expensive and not quick enough...
What sports car is quicker and cheaper? And as for 'cheaper' or same price, then examples below (with a little negotiation on some):
Audi RS5
Audi TT RS+
BMW M3 Coupe
Corvette Z06
Lotus Evora
Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe
Porsche Cayman R
The worst thing about Alfa are the dealers , thin on the ground and utterly hopeless.
I remain fascinated to see if the relatively crap Alfa dealer network can tease people into a £50K 1.8 4 cylinder car...
They'll need help - quite a lot of help - with that.
Rarity is probably a boon here - if they made more their value would melt faster than the polar icecaps!!
I like the headlights tbh - in fact that's the best looking Alfa in a while, we're getting used to the design language I think (tho liking the Mito is still a bit of an ask)
They'll need help - quite a lot of help - with that.
Rarity is probably a boon here - if they made more their value would melt faster than the polar icecaps!!
I like the headlights tbh - in fact that's the best looking Alfa in a while, we're getting used to the design language I think (tho liking the Mito is still a bit of an ask)
Alfa dealers that bad in the UK? We've got a very mixed bag here. Some been in the network for decades and quite good but expensive, others turned indy and better value, lot's of real rubbish ones. IMVHO a 4C is probably better taken to an indy anyway, as long as they have access to gearbox and engine diagnostics (should be available from AR).
Still convinced it will sell well. Looks good enough, the stats are sufficient to be competitive at the pub and it is not a Porsche. And now it turns out it's also quite fun to drive. Good news really.
Still convinced it will sell well. Looks good enough, the stats are sufficient to be competitive at the pub and it is not a Porsche. And now it turns out it's also quite fun to drive. Good news really.
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