RE: Caterham Seven 160: Review
Discussion
Kolbenkopp said:
Pleasure! CO2 score is 118 g/km, at least according to one German importer (PDF here: http://modix.de/vpdf/?format=65&chiffre=MDX-P5... ). Not bad at all considering the aero properties of the car and what seems (at least from the vids) like pretty short gearing. I hope that does not make it overly expensive for Finland. Seeing what the Frenchies have to pay in "eco" tax for even a standard 120 PS Sigma, the 165 certainly makes a lot of sense there...
118 g/km is a good figure! If that is what is printed on the official EU CoC then that's good news indeed. The problem with the second hand 120PS Sigma is that not all of them are EU-type-approved. There are versions which have gone throught the ECSSTA (European Community Small Series Type Approval) and those are the ones you can import. However, none of the Sigmas sold in the UK would have been approved in this way, so they will not be eligible for import into the EU. So, unless you can find a second-hand LHD 120 Sigma with the ECSSTA paperwork sorted somewhere (most likely in Germany, France, Holland, etc.), then second-hand is out of the question. Could be different for Germany if TUV allow exceptions for registration, but in Finland it is pretty clear: no EU-type-approval, no registration. The only exception to this is older cars, usually pre-1992, but I wouldn't really want such an old Seven.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/5552263/C...
Well, you've obviously done your research 
.
It is almost exactly the same here, with the exception that you can have a full "single car" full approval for stuff without a CoC. But this is difficult to pass, mainly due to emissions. You have to have the car up to the EU emissions spec valid in Germany at the time of first registration. So for example it is basically impossible to get a late 1.4 K-Series registered here, as they never passed EU5 or EU4. And there's a few other problems. It is not that cheap, and basically depending on the mood of the inspector, they can make it very difficult indeed if they take a few things by the letter of the law.
And in my experience, there's only a few worse things than dealing with a German bureaucrat that happens to be in a bad mood. Hence the attractiveness of a 165 with all the paper work dealt with due to type approval.
What surprised me a bit though is what a ~ €25k budget would currently get me on the local used market. I had not looked for a while because, frankly, prices used to be beyond silly. But at the moment, that budget would get me an older Sigma or late K-Series car with German papers. There are a few pro dealers with good connections to TÜV that apparently get a number of used UK cars imported and registered, the GBP/EUR exchange rate seems to finally have made an impact, and perhaps there are buyers that are selling stuff in the 120 PS class in order to upgrade to a 485...
Just to add a little PS: for what ever it is worth, I still find the concept of the 160/165 very attractive. I don't think it needs more power, looks like on the contrary the setup means you can have fun driving the nuts off it without risking the license, and it will be pretty cheap to run. Added bonus: you can tell the greenies that your two seater open top turbo sports car is better for the environment than their shed of choice. Cost vs. a used one in the local market and that weather gear issue makes it a tougher sell (to me
) though.
. It is almost exactly the same here, with the exception that you can have a full "single car" full approval for stuff without a CoC. But this is difficult to pass, mainly due to emissions. You have to have the car up to the EU emissions spec valid in Germany at the time of first registration. So for example it is basically impossible to get a late 1.4 K-Series registered here, as they never passed EU5 or EU4. And there's a few other problems. It is not that cheap, and basically depending on the mood of the inspector, they can make it very difficult indeed if they take a few things by the letter of the law.
And in my experience, there's only a few worse things than dealing with a German bureaucrat that happens to be in a bad mood. Hence the attractiveness of a 165 with all the paper work dealt with due to type approval.
What surprised me a bit though is what a ~ €25k budget would currently get me on the local used market. I had not looked for a while because, frankly, prices used to be beyond silly. But at the moment, that budget would get me an older Sigma or late K-Series car with German papers. There are a few pro dealers with good connections to TÜV that apparently get a number of used UK cars imported and registered, the GBP/EUR exchange rate seems to finally have made an impact, and perhaps there are buyers that are selling stuff in the 120 PS class in order to upgrade to a 485...
Just to add a little PS: for what ever it is worth, I still find the concept of the 160/165 very attractive. I don't think it needs more power, looks like on the contrary the setup means you can have fun driving the nuts off it without risking the license, and it will be pretty cheap to run. Added bonus: you can tell the greenies that your two seater open top turbo sports car is better for the environment than their shed of choice. Cost vs. a used one in the local market and that weather gear issue makes it a tougher sell (to me
) though.Edited by Kolbenkopp on Monday 4th November 23:01
Kolbenkopp said:
What surprised me a bit though is what a ~ €25k budget would currently get me on the local used market. I had not looked for a while because, frankly, prices used to be beyond silly. But at the moment, that budget would get me an older Sigma or late K-Series car with German papers. There are a few pro dealers with good connections to TÜV that apparently get a number of used UK cars imported and registered, the GBP/EUR exchange rate seems to finally have made an impact, and perhaps there are buyers that are selling stuff in the 120 PS class in order to upgrade to a 485...
Yep, in Germany you have that advantage that there are already some almost-new, second-hand, Sevens available. To be honest, if I was there, I would be looking at those. However, since most of these cars probably made it to Germany through the "Single Vehicle Approval" instead of EU type approval, then that means it is not an option for me to buy one in Germany and import it to Finland. I could only do it if the German car had the proper paperwork. Some of them might do but it might become quite a hassle to ascertain the paperwork on a car which is advertised for sale in another country. In any case, I looked at the Co2 emissions of the 120 Sigma and it is showing at 162 g/km. That's a lot more than the 118 g/km in the 165 Suzuki. In practice this means the 165 will have a tax of 19.7% in Finland whereas the 120 Sigma would have a tax of 28.1%. Now, combine that with the 3,300 GBP you save when buying the new car and all of a sudden the 165 is starting to make a lot more sense.
I just need to find some chrome hubcaps for those steelies a la the original Lotus Seven like in the picture!
mikesalt said:
Westfield Special Edition is £500 more, but usually can be ordered at the various kit-car shows with 15% off, which makes it £13174.15 if you take advantage of that offer. What you get seems to be another 70 BHP, but being from a Zetec engine, with a steel block, this would weigh quite a bit more than the little Suzuki engine. You also get alloy wheels and full independent suspension at the rear.
It's also a proper kit, not a turnkey car.Mr2Mike said:
mikesalt said:
Westfield Special Edition is £500 more, but usually can be ordered at the various kit-car shows with 15% off, which makes it £13174.15 if you take advantage of that offer. What you get seems to be another 70 BHP, but being from a Zetec engine, with a steel block, this would weigh quite a bit more than the little Suzuki engine. You also get alloy wheels and full independent suspension at the rear.
It's also a proper kit, not a turnkey car.I remember watching a fifth gear review a while back of Plato reviewing a Westfield, which was mostly him whinging about how bad it was. But then it was Plato.
MarkRSi said:
Without starting a flame war, how does the quality of the Caterhams and Westfields compare? Are you just buying the name or are you getting better quality components etc.?
I remember watching a fifth gear review a while back of Plato reviewing a Westfield, which was mostly him whinging about how bad it was. But then it was Plato.
I'll no doubt get toasted but I'll say it...they don't compare!I remember watching a fifth gear review a while back of Plato reviewing a Westfield, which was mostly him whinging about how bad it was. But then it was Plato.
I speak as someone who has owned and built 1 Westfield and 2 Caterhams of my own, and helped a friend build his Westfield and then his Caterham.
I've ordered the Seven 160 in the light blue and having a British Racing Green noseband (Vintage green it's called and as near as dammit), full weather equipment, heater, 12v socket, alu fuel cap, carpets lowered floor etc, it'll be ready in November, I'll use it as a complete leisure car, touring in no particular order - the Highlands and Islands of Scotland and Wales, also The Yorkshire Dales, Lake District, Northumberland, Ireland, Norfolk Broads, Devon and Cornwall etc etc, can't wait to take delivery, I've driven their demo car, great, marvellous sound, fast enough, loads of character without all the aids you get with modern cars, if you make a mistake, hard luck, you're on your own, (in consideration of other drivers, pedestrians of course). Tony.
Edited by Tonythesalesman on Saturday 19th July 01:09
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