Electric Car Repairs/Maintenance ?
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Not overly concerned by most i3s at this stage being RE. I would be three years down the line. At present the early adopters are worried about range but many will begin to appreciate that their daily usage never comes close to needing the RE.
Yep. RE just a comfort blanket for many until they realise they don't really need it.For a number of years my father had two cars. The 6 cyl mile-eater for weekends, and a 3 cyl daihatsu micro car for his 10 mile commute.
He would have been into an EV like a shot, had they been around at the time.
Horses for courses.
Back on topic, EV maintenance (battery aside) should be significanltly lower than ICE - just think of the cooling system alone. No water pump, hoses, radiator and associated corrosion,
He would have been into an EV like a shot, had they been around at the time.
Horses for courses.
Back on topic, EV maintenance (battery aside) should be significanltly lower than ICE - just think of the cooling system alone. No water pump, hoses, radiator and associated corrosion,
Technomatt said:
Back on topic with some EV residuals:
Current Renault Twizy. £7000 new but also available secondhand right now from a dealer with 50 miles on the clock for £4000. A 43% drop or £80 per mile.
Current Renault Fluence. £17845 new (After £5000 Govt Grant. List £22845) but also available today, from a dealer, one year old for £8000 with 490 miles on the clock. A 55% annual drop or £20 per mile.
That's bloody cheap. My wife spends more than that in fuel alone in a year. Hmm could get it paid for with 1 years fuel cost and then have car for free. WowzersCurrent Renault Twizy. £7000 new but also available secondhand right now from a dealer with 50 miles on the clock for £4000. A 43% drop or £80 per mile.
Current Renault Fluence. £17845 new (After £5000 Govt Grant. List £22845) but also available today, from a dealer, one year old for £8000 with 490 miles on the clock. A 55% annual drop or £20 per mile.
I suspect a healthy aftermarket will spring up around EV's, lock in has been tried before with ECU's, specific connecters etc etc, as long as there is enough of a market there will be an aftermarket.
I remember when Electronic fuel injection came in, it was viewed with awe and suspicion at first but people build knowledge, especially easy now as it is shared via the internet, across the globe between the interested parties, largely for free.
I think EV's make massive sense for a lot of people, it is a bit of an oddball choice at the moment but it is happening, people will get used to seeing, buying and running EV's, they arent for everyone just yet but diesels just used to be in commercials, generators and boats, now everything has one.
it will initially be wealthier, early adopters, just for the fact that all full electric cars on the road are under a couple of years old, they are now on my radar as a runabout, we have a Citroen C1, I can see when that comes up for replacement a Leaf may slot in very nicely.
I think the maintenance will be negligible, wonderful though the IC engine is, it is basically volatile fossil based fuel exploding under control which generate excessive heat, noise and complexity, its saving grace is the fuel is energy dense and fairly easy to store and transport.
The IC Engine has had a hundred years of use or more and the attendant development, a superior technology has always been available but the fuel issue prevented it being adopted widely, it does feel like other technologies, like the CRT, Broadcast TV, Records, Tapes etc, all effectively bodges developed more than they really should have been that will get dropped like a stone when the technology exists to support the simpler, better solution.
The death knell is getting ready to sound for the IC Engine as the main motive force for most personal transport, it will take a while but it is sure as hell coming.
Buy Shares in EV companies and battery manufacturers !
I remember when Electronic fuel injection came in, it was viewed with awe and suspicion at first but people build knowledge, especially easy now as it is shared via the internet, across the globe between the interested parties, largely for free.
I think EV's make massive sense for a lot of people, it is a bit of an oddball choice at the moment but it is happening, people will get used to seeing, buying and running EV's, they arent for everyone just yet but diesels just used to be in commercials, generators and boats, now everything has one.
it will initially be wealthier, early adopters, just for the fact that all full electric cars on the road are under a couple of years old, they are now on my radar as a runabout, we have a Citroen C1, I can see when that comes up for replacement a Leaf may slot in very nicely.
I think the maintenance will be negligible, wonderful though the IC engine is, it is basically volatile fossil based fuel exploding under control which generate excessive heat, noise and complexity, its saving grace is the fuel is energy dense and fairly easy to store and transport.
The IC Engine has had a hundred years of use or more and the attendant development, a superior technology has always been available but the fuel issue prevented it being adopted widely, it does feel like other technologies, like the CRT, Broadcast TV, Records, Tapes etc, all effectively bodges developed more than they really should have been that will get dropped like a stone when the technology exists to support the simpler, better solution.
The death knell is getting ready to sound for the IC Engine as the main motive force for most personal transport, it will take a while but it is sure as hell coming.
Buy Shares in EV companies and battery manufacturers !
Welshbeef said:
Technomatt said:
Back on topic with some EV residuals:
Current Renault Twizy. £7000 new but also available secondhand right now from a dealer with 50 miles on the clock for £4000. A 43% drop or £80 per mile.
Current Renault Fluence. £17845 new (After £5000 Govt Grant. List £22845) but also available today, from a dealer, one year old for £8000 with 490 miles on the clock. A 55% annual drop or £20 per mile.
That's bloody cheap. My wife spends more than that in fuel alone in a year. Hmm could get it paid for with 1 years fuel cost and then have car for free. WowzersCurrent Renault Twizy. £7000 new but also available secondhand right now from a dealer with 50 miles on the clock for £4000. A 43% drop or £80 per mile.
Current Renault Fluence. £17845 new (After £5000 Govt Grant. List £22845) but also available today, from a dealer, one year old for £8000 with 490 miles on the clock. A 55% annual drop or £20 per mile.
Welshbeef said:
Technomatt said:
Back on topic with some EV residuals:
Current Renault Twizy. £7000 new but also available secondhand right now from a dealer with 50 miles on the clock for £4000. A 43% drop or £80 per mile.
Current Renault Fluence. £17845 new (After £5000 Govt Grant. List £22845) but also available today, from a dealer, one year old for £8000 with 490 miles on the clock. A 55% annual drop or £20 per mile.
That's bloody cheap. My wife spends more than that in fuel alone in a year. Hmm could get it paid for with 1 years fuel cost and then have car for free. WowzersCurrent Renault Twizy. £7000 new but also available secondhand right now from a dealer with 50 miles on the clock for £4000. A 43% drop or £80 per mile.
Current Renault Fluence. £17845 new (After £5000 Govt Grant. List £22845) but also available today, from a dealer, one year old for £8000 with 490 miles on the clock. A 55% annual drop or £20 per mile.
2012:
1 Renault TWIZY COUPE 2-DOOR E (17bhp)
£4,495
2012 (62 reg),
201 miles
2 Renault Twizy 13KW URBAN AUTOMATIC 2 DOOR
£4,499
2012 (62 reg),
51 miles
3 Renault TWIZY COUPE 2-DOOR E (17bhp)
£4,999
2012 (62 reg),
30 miles
4 Renault Twizy ELECTRIC AUTOMATIC, 2 DOOR COUPE,
£5,000
2012 (12 reg),
1,711 miles
5 Renault TWIZY COUPE 2-DOOR E (17bhp)
£5,000
2012 (12 reg),
3,600 miles
6 Renault Twizy Urban
£5,000
2012 (12 reg),
800 miles
7 Renault TWIZY COUPE 2-DOOR E (17bhp)
£5,500
2012 (62 reg),
250 miles
8 Renault Twizy 13kW Technic 2dr
£5,500
2012 (12 reg),
1,389 miles
9 Renault Twizy 13kW Colour 2dr
£5,987
2012 (62 reg),
5,000 miles
10 Renault Twizy Technic 1.0
£5,995
2012 (12 reg),
1,400 miles
11 Renault Twizy 13kW Technic 2dr
£5,995
2012 (12 reg),
600 miles
12 Renault TWIZY COUPE 2-DOOR E (17bhp)
£6,495
2012 (62 reg),
854 miles
13 Renault Twizy 13kW Colour 2dr
£6,995
2012 (12 reg),
680 miles
14 Renault Twizy ZE Colour
£7,700
2012 (62 reg),
557 miles
15 Renault Twizy 13KW TECHNIC 2DR AUTO.
£10,000
2012 (12 reg),
1,000 miles
2012 Average: £5,944
Sale Price: £7,000 Twizy Urban £6690 on the road, a Color £6950, and Technic £7400
Depreciation: -15%
2013:
1 Renault TWIZY 13KW URBAN 2DR AUTO
£4,900
2013 (13 reg),
184 miles
2 Renault TWIZY COUPE 2-DOOR E (17bhp)
£5,000
2013 (62 reg),
1,000 miles
3 Renault Twizy 13kW Urban 2dr AutoN
£5,479
2013 (62 reg),
1,000 miles
4 Renault Twizy E (17bhp)
£6,250
2013 (62 reg),
85 miles
5 Renault Twizy Urban 1.0
£7,540
2013 (13 reg)
35 miles
6 Renault TWIZY COUPE 2-DOOR E (17bhp)
£7,000
2013 (62 reg),
15 miles
7 Renault TWIZY COUPE 2-DOOR E (17bhp)
£7,800
2013 (13 reg),
487 miles
2013 Average: £6,281
Sale Price: £7,000 URBAN, £6,895 COLOUR, £6,950 TECHNIC, £7,595
Depreciation: -10%
These discussion would be much more productive if fanatics weren't slapping childish lies all over the place but actually brought real issues to the table. There are obviously many pertinent issues so God knows why people feel the need to just make s
t up.DonkeyApple said:
These discussion would be much more productive if fanatics weren't slapping childish lies all over the place but actually brought real issues to the table. There are obviously many pertinent issues so God knows why people feel the need to just make st up.
Calm down chap.t up.People might start to think you are getting a bit stressed over valid data not chiming in with your personal views.
This Twizy was just an example of what is available right now:
2 Renault Twizy 13KW URBAN AUTOMATIC 2 DOOR
£4,499
2012 (62 reg),
51 miles
Thats is an easy £4000 unless you like to pay the dealers full asking price.
Dealers can also ask what they like for a car, the important bit is what they sell for. Used Renault Fluence's are stuck on the forecourt.
Technomatt said:
DonkeyApple said:
These discussion would be much more productive if fanatics weren't slapping childish lies all over the place but actually brought real issues to the table. There are obviously many pertinent issues so God knows why people feel the need to just make st up.
Calm down chap.t up.People might start to think you are getting a bit stressed over valid data not chiming in with your personal views.
This Twizy was just an example of what is available right now:
2 Renault Twizy 13KW URBAN AUTOMATIC 2 DOOR
£4,499
2012 (62 reg),
51 miles
Thats is an easy £4000 unless you like to pay the dealers full asking price.
Dealers can also ask what they like for a car, the important bit is what they sell for. Used Renault Fluence's are stuck on the forecourt.
J4CKO said:
I suspect a healthy aftermarket will spring up around EV's, lock in has been tried before with ECU's, specific connecters etc etc, as long as there is enough of a market there will be an aftermarket.
I remember when Electronic fuel injection came in, it was viewed with awe and suspicion at first but people build knowledge, especially easy now as it is shared via the internet, across the globe between the interested parties, largely for free.
With the arrival and ever increasing use of constantly monitored systems,vehicles being updated by the manufacturers in real time and on board finery such as sat-nav becoming reliant on dedicated manufacturers networks to function or updateI remember when Electronic fuel injection came in, it was viewed with awe and suspicion at first but people build knowledge, especially easy now as it is shared via the internet, across the globe between the interested parties, largely for free.
they would simply use a similar tactic employed by games console manufacturers with modified or altered consoles and just ban you permanently from the network,leaving it virtually worthless.
They could easily reverse,overwrite or stop any software changes you may have made,
Even shut the car down entirely,after requiring that you sign a legal binding agreement not to tamper upon purchase.
Using their combined might to push through legislation that suits them is a well worn path for the motor industry,this time they will have reasonable safety issues on their side.
As it is the EU is constantly pushing for tighter and tighter controls over our vehicles already and as computer-electric technology is seemingly viewed as the way forward and using safety as a primary lever it will be easy for the manufacturers to convince the needed bodies that total control over their product is the way to go,
Maybe even going as far as outlawing any such ideas of wiring in a couple of extra pp9`s
Already software is making it hard or near impossible to modify some stuff without whole swathes of other stuff not working.
Christ,from what I gather from this site,even a satisfactory dpf delete is beyond many `specialists`
Let alone the seemingly,commonly held view on here that successful mapping of just two parameters(fuel and air)as it stands is an art coveted by many but mastered by very few and that`s been going on for 20 odd years now!
I have heard that new Volvo models of all types will have total encryption of all systems requiring factory generated codes for any diagnostics,apart from obligated obd which covers very little (engine/emissions system)and will no doubt be redundant on an EV.
There is no arguing that that can only be to cut out the competition.
Honda have for some time now,been using codes for stuff that you just cant obtain for love nor money.
If that is the state now,what will it be in 5-10 years time?
Also comparing fuel injection tech to EV tech is a little like comparing an airbus with the Wright brothers flier,I`m afraid.
Manufacturer lock-in is as old as the hills. Much of the legislation is an attempt to restrict it.
ie
OBD was legislated in the US so that non-dealer workshops could perform mandatory vehicle tests. Prior to that, each manufacturer had their own protocols, and were reluctant to share that data.
Dealer lock in is what they want.
ditto Warranty.
I don't know about the UK, but in Aus they are forced to honour warranties if the car has been serviced to the manufacturers spec, even if by an independant. The manufacturers fought that one tooth and claw.
EV's will be no different, but probably no worse.
And just think - with no tailpipe emissions, and little noise, you can tune it how you like, without worrying about failing emissions / MOT
ie
OBD was legislated in the US so that non-dealer workshops could perform mandatory vehicle tests. Prior to that, each manufacturer had their own protocols, and were reluctant to share that data.
Dealer lock in is what they want.
ditto Warranty.
I don't know about the UK, but in Aus they are forced to honour warranties if the car has been serviced to the manufacturers spec, even if by an independant. The manufacturers fought that one tooth and claw.
EV's will be no different, but probably no worse.
And just think - with no tailpipe emissions, and little noise, you can tune it how you like, without worrying about failing emissions / MOT
AW111 said:
Manufacturer lock-in is as old as the hills. Much of the legislation is an attempt to restrict it.
ie
OBD was legislated in the US so that non-dealer workshops could perform mandatory vehicle tests. Prior to that, each manufacturer had their own protocols, and were reluctant to share that data.
Dealer lock in is what they want.
ditto Warranty.
I don't know about the UK, but in Aus they are forced to honour warranties if the car has been serviced to the manufacturers spec, even if by an independant. The manufacturers fought that one tooth and claw.
EV's will be no different, but probably no worse.
And just think - with no tailpipe emissions, and little noise, you can tune it how you like, without worrying about failing emissions / MOT
The slump in secondary income is going to be a big concern for dealers. The finance model remains unchanged but a significant shift in a dealer to EV will be a huge revenue hit. It suggests additional front loading on primary sales ticket being the obvious solution from their perspective.ie
OBD was legislated in the US so that non-dealer workshops could perform mandatory vehicle tests. Prior to that, each manufacturer had their own protocols, and were reluctant to share that data.
Dealer lock in is what they want.
ditto Warranty.
I don't know about the UK, but in Aus they are forced to honour warranties if the car has been serviced to the manufacturers spec, even if by an independant. The manufacturers fought that one tooth and claw.
EV's will be no different, but probably no worse.
And just think - with no tailpipe emissions, and little noise, you can tune it how you like, without worrying about failing emissions / MOT
This is why we may well see, in due course, independent business models for the EV side. If the afore mentioned checks such as valve caps or moving wheels were real and not jokes then it shows that manufacturers and delaers are already having to scramble around to find the weakest of reasons to bring a vehicle back for secondary income.
People going on about tyre shredding abilities of EVs are forgetting that torque at the wheel is far greater than the torque of the engine due to the gearbox of an ICE car.
A quote from the Drayson thread
A quote from the Drayson thread
mec82 said:
Good article and car looks good, however...
The torque figures that are banded about for EVs really annoys me, this article constantly mentions 4000Nm axle torque as something extraordinary, when it's really not at all. This can't be compared to 'conventional' engine outputs because the EV doesn't have a gearbox!
Take an SL65 AMG, it makes 740Nm, it has a first gear ratio of 4.38 and a final drive of 2.65.
Axle torque in first gear = 740 x 4.38 x 2.65 = 8,590Nm!!!!!!! Makes the Drayson seem more like a Dyson!
Even a Focus ST makes 4720Nm in first!
And while that drops in higher gears, so does the EV motor torque once it reaches it's base speed.
The torque figures that are banded about for EVs really annoys me, this article constantly mentions 4000Nm axle torque as something extraordinary, when it's really not at all. This can't be compared to 'conventional' engine outputs because the EV doesn't have a gearbox!
Take an SL65 AMG, it makes 740Nm, it has a first gear ratio of 4.38 and a final drive of 2.65.
Axle torque in first gear = 740 x 4.38 x 2.65 = 8,590Nm!!!!!!! Makes the Drayson seem more like a Dyson!
Even a Focus ST makes 4720Nm in first!
And while that drops in higher gears, so does the EV motor torque once it reaches it's base speed.
shoehorn said:
J4CKO said:
I suspect a healthy aftermarket will spring up around EV's, lock in has been tried before with ECU's, specific connecters etc etc, as long as there is enough of a market there will be an aftermarket.
I remember when Electronic fuel injection came in, it was viewed with awe and suspicion at first but people build knowledge, especially easy now as it is shared via the internet, across the globe between the interested parties, largely for free.
With the arrival and ever increasing use of constantly monitored systems,vehicles being updated by the manufacturers in real time and on board finery such as sat-nav becoming reliant on dedicated manufacturers networks to function or updateI remember when Electronic fuel injection came in, it was viewed with awe and suspicion at first but people build knowledge, especially easy now as it is shared via the internet, across the globe between the interested parties, largely for free.
they would simply use a similar tactic employed by games console manufacturers with modified or altered consoles and just ban you permanently from the network,leaving it virtually worthless.
They could easily reverse,overwrite or stop any software changes you may have made,
Even shut the car down entirely,after requiring that you sign a legal binding agreement not to tamper upon purchase.
Using their combined might to push through legislation that suits them is a well worn path for the motor industry,this time they will have reasonable safety issues on their side.
As it is the EU is constantly pushing for tighter and tighter controls over our vehicles already and as computer-electric technology is seemingly viewed as the way forward and using safety as a primary lever it will be easy for the manufacturers to convince the needed bodies that total control over their product is the way to go,
Maybe even going as far as outlawing any such ideas of wiring in a couple of extra pp9`s
Already software is making it hard or near impossible to modify some stuff without whole swathes of other stuff not working.
Christ,from what I gather from this site,even a satisfactory dpf delete is beyond many `specialists`
Let alone the seemingly,commonly held view on here that successful mapping of just two parameters(fuel and air)as it stands is an art coveted by many but mastered by very few and that`s been going on for 20 odd years now!
I have heard that new Volvo models of all types will have total encryption of all systems requiring factory generated codes for any diagnostics,apart from obligated obd which covers very little (engine/emissions system)and will no doubt be redundant on an EV.
There is no arguing that that can only be to cut out the competition.
Honda have for some time now,been using codes for stuff that you just cant obtain for love nor money.
If that is the state now,what will it be in 5-10 years time?
Also comparing fuel injection tech to EV tech is a little like comparing an airbus with the Wright brothers flier,I`m afraid.
I don't think manufacturers will start "Bricking" peoples cars, suspect if there is there will be a market for getting them chipped like a console or someone will develop an unlocked system, it is amazing how resourceful and devious people can be when they need to be, if there is too much lock in, then people will avoid that product, look at the outcry when MS said you couldn't play second hand games on the new Xbox.
Slightly off-topic, but I can see a market for custom instrumentation. Plug the tablet of choice in, and run your custom display. You can do it now with OBDII, but if I had an EV I would want to play with a customised display.
I bet dodgy dave will show up offering "battery conditioning" or some such snake oil as EV's become more common.
I bet dodgy dave will show up offering "battery conditioning" or some such snake oil as EV's become more common.
AW111 said:
Slightly off-topic, but I can see a market for custom instrumentation. Plug the tablet of choice in, and run your custom display. You can do it now with OBDII, but if I had an EV I would want to play with a customised display.
I bet dodgy dave will show up offering "battery conditioning" or some such snake oil as EV's become more common.
Once they become cheap enough it is almost a given that you'll see and EV driving along with windmills stuck all over it that the mug bought from a specialist 'perpetual motion' vendor on Ebay.I bet dodgy dave will show up offering "battery conditioning" or some such snake oil as EV's become more common.
J4CKO said:
How long can an electric motor last, do they wear out ?
Depends on the motor but the moving parts are the bearings and possibly brushes (though I guess most are brushless?), which can be replaced fairly easily. You can also burn out a coil but given how many aftermarket companies can refurbish alternators these days I'd have thought a fair few will spring up to refurbish electric motors.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff