RE: Bentley: made in Germany

[gumsie]

The board at Mercedes, Audi and BMW must be laughing into their Sauerkraut. What an ugly beast of a thing.

Even those at Trabant must be wondering if there's an opening in the market.

[LotusOmega375D]

Macboy said:

What the article mentions clearly is that this is the second time that Bentley has built Flying Spurs in Dresden. They were built for almost a year for export markets soon after launch - not just a "handful" either. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth on UK forums, no one else minded very much. All the cars were exported to markets like Russia and into Asia, they were as well or better built than the Crewe-built cars and all the important bits like interiors, wood, engines were all hand crafted in Crewe and shipped out. The body is made in Germany anyway, always has been, as is much of the other systems so it probably cost less to build as it had less transport miles for major elements. Seems logical to utilise the factory in Germany which is as impressive as the Mclaren plant and much more welcoming.

If this flexible approach works and is good for Bentley then crack on with it I say. At least VW has agreed to invest in Crewe for the SUV or this could easily have only been built in Bratislava. Wouldn't it be great to think that all Bentley's new VW derived models were successful enough to need extra capacity to support customer orders?

I did the tour with some German colleagues back then. About every fourth vehicle was a Flying Spur. The guide seemed rather embarrassed that I was a Britisher seeing all that. He assured me that none of the Dresden built Flying Spurs were intended for UK or USA markets. However, many of them had US-spec side repeaters and those gangsta chrome alloys so beloved of our American cousins...

[so called]

When VAG and BMW had their little spat over Bentley and RR, I think, for both Bentley and RR, Crewe people (OK so I served my time in the Loco works), seemed quite happy that there would be money to help the two Marks stay alive.
Certainly at little less happy when RR left.

VAG have invested consistantly over the years and many more jobs have been created.
When I drive past the Factory I'm please that they are busy.
As has been commented on the news today regarding the German trade surplus, they can't manufacture quick enough to meet the demand for many German products.
If you join the German Manufacturing, Engineering and Management abilities along with that unexplainable British hand built something that is so respected world wide then I think that the Bentley image will not suffer.

I stopped to buy a sandwich this morning in a Village in north Germany in my MB CLS with English plates.
A few seconds later a chap stopped me and asked why I wasnt driving a Bentley and he proudly asked if I knew that some where being built in Germany.
He them went on to tell me how much he loved Austen Healey and all british sports cars. A comment I hear regularly in Germany, US etc.

Unfortunately when I told him I had a TVR he gave me the common response of "Is that a Triumph" ? ---- Cant win them all I suppose.

[Ed.]

k-ink said:

aeropilot said:

k-ink said:

I have not considered Bentley British for years. Just like the BMW MINI. I would be surprised if anyone felt differently, so it seems like a non story.

Conversely it can work the other way around.

I know an older chap who has been driving Japanese cars since the 1970's, won't buy anything else, was banging on a few months back about how he gave up on British cars back then as they were built so badly and wouldn't ever buy them again.
I said, you've changed your mind then....pointing at his recently bought, new Honda Jazz
He wouldn't believe me when I said "'cos that's made in Swindon"

Interesting point of view. But I take this stance...So there are a few spanner monkeys on a UK assembly line to get a tax break. The only benefit that has to our economy is a few less unskilled people on the dole. However all Japanese cars are conceived and designed in Japan. All the profits go to the head quarters in Japan (plus their shareholders of course) which is clearly a benefit to the Japanese economy. Just because the final assembly of parts is sometimes done in the UK (for particular models) that does not change the fact Japan are exporting their products to UK consumers. Therefore their cars are totally Japanese.

Wasn't the European Honda civic designed in Europe? I am pretty sure Toyota has a US design studio for the US market also.

UK car manufacture is higher than it has ever been, the profits may be going abroad but that's better than the losses staying here as in the BL era.

[Speedraser]

Herr Rothenpieler, I don’t buy cars like a Bentley because the “synergy is optimal”

For me, a car like a Bentley is an emotional purchase, so I would not want my “British” Bentley to be built in Germany. Where the VW Phaeton is built. On the same production line as the VW Phaeton. On the same basic platform of the VW Phaeton, however much modified that platform may be. With the same basic engine, transmission and general driveline that the VW Phaeton uses.

It’s one thing when Porsche built Boxsters in Finland (note that they did NOT build 911s there) and Aston built Rapides in Austria – those are dedicated facilities for car manufacturers that need more production capacity. This is different – it’s not just being built at another factory in a non-British place, it’s being built on the same line that builds the VW it’s based on. That FEELS different. It’s one thing when it’s a run of the mill car, such as a SEAT, but it’s another thing entirely when it’s a car at this level. This is yet another step that, to me, makes new Bentleys (Mulsanne excepted) less and less special and desirable. It’s why I don’t like platform sharing, especially for expensive, “special” cars. Yes, of course I understand the business case, but that business case rarely results in a car I WANT more. It’s progressively more VW and less Bentley.

Most buyers won’t know, and fewer will care. That said, I know several Bentley Conti/Flying Spur owners who were truly upset when they learned their car was built on a VW platform and shared so many components (major ones – engines, platforms, not minor things like column stalks) with the VW.

[tombstone]

Most buyers won’t know, and fewer will care. That said, I know several Bentley Conti/Flying Spur owners who were truly upset when they learned their car was built on a VW platform and shared so many components (major ones – engines, platforms, not minor things like column stalks) with the VW.

[/quote]


Like telling a RR Phantom owner the Land Rover/BMW parts bins it's been assembled from...

[DonkeyApple]

k-ink said:

aeropilot said:

k-ink said:

I have not considered Bentley British for years. Just like the BMW MINI. I would be surprised if anyone felt differently, so it seems like a non story.

Conversely it can work the other way around.

I know an older chap who has been driving Japanese cars since the 1970's, won't buy anything else, was banging on a few months back about how he gave up on British cars back then as they were built so badly and wouldn't ever buy them again.
I said, you've changed your mind then....pointing at his recently bought, new Honda Jazz
He wouldn't believe me when I said "'cos that's made in Swindon"

Interesting point of view. But I take this stance...So there are a few spanner monkeys on a UK assembly line to get a tax break. The only benefit that has to our economy is a few less unskilled people on the dole. However all Japanese cars are conceived and designed in Japan. All the profits go to the head quarters in Japan (plus their shareholders of course) which is clearly a benefit to the Japanese economy. Just because the final assembly of parts is sometimes done in the UK (for particular models) that does not change the fact Japan are exporting their products to UK consumers. Therefore their cars are totally Japanese.

Technically it is a combination of where the employees are, where the shareholders are and the corporate tax structure.

With a global business employing high labour numbers it is usually the case that the local labour taxes are much larger than the corporate tax in the home market after the global revenues have been washed through the various offshore structures etc.

Then with listed firms, obviously the domestic exchange will benefit from flow revenues but the real money is made by the shareholders. Us Brits and our pension funds are significant holders of major Nikkei constituents.

As a smaller aside, want the MX5 designed by Brits?

[Amirhussain]

TVR1 said:

Blimey, I really hope you lot don't look up the history of 'Our' Royal family.

You won't be able to cope!

[Wadeski]

To be honest, for the growth markets like Russia, China and the middle east it doesnt matter a jot.

Besides the "made in Britain" tag is so damaged in some key markets (e.g. the USA) by woeful reliability that it probably doesnt make a difference. Cars from Britain are held in similar regard as we see cars from the Communist bloc. When it was Communist.

[DonkeyApple]

Wadeski said:

To be honest, for the growth markets like Russia, China and the middle east it doesnt matter a jot.

Besides the "made in Britain" tag is so damaged in some key markets (e.g. the USA) by woeful reliability that it probably doesnt make a difference. Cars from Britain are held in similar regard as we see cars from the Communist bloc. When it was Communist.

That's because back then all Russian and British cars were built under Communism. The Russians just stopped the practice a decade or two before us.

[aeropilot]

k-ink said:

aeropilot said:

k-ink said:

I have not considered Bentley British for years. Just like the BMW MINI. I would be surprised if anyone felt differently, so it seems like a non story.

Conversely it can work the other way around.

I know an older chap who has been driving Japanese cars since the 1970's, won't buy anything else, was banging on a few months back about how he gave up on British cars back then as they were built so badly and wouldn't ever buy them again.
I said, you've changed your mind then....pointing at his recently bought, new Honda Jazz
He wouldn't believe me when I said "'cos that's made in Swindon"

Interesting point of view. But I take this stance...So there are a few spanner monkeys on a UK assembly line to get a tax break. The only benefit that has to our economy is a few less unskilled people on the dole. However all Japanese cars are conceived and designed in Japan. All the profits go to the head quarters in Japan (plus their shareholders of course) which is clearly a benefit to the Japanese economy. Just because the final assembly of parts is sometimes done in the UK (for particular models) that does not change the fact Japan are exporting their products to UK consumers. Therefore their cars are totally Japanese.

Indeed, however among non-petrolhead people it's all about perception. This guy didn't even know that Honda, Nissan & Toyota even had major modern high tech car manufacturing plants in the UK, and as I said I think his brain was short-circuiting at the though that someone from the UK had made his beloved Honda (or rather operated the robot that made his Honda)

Equally I know of someone else who bangs on about buying German made cars for the quality (but doesn't really know much about cars) but drives a BMW X5 ...... and wasn't aware that was made in the USA

[sila bika]

k-ink said:

aeropilot said:

k-ink said:

I have not considered Bentley British for years. Just like the BMW MINI. I would be surprised if anyone felt differently, so it seems like a non story.

Conversely it can work the other way around.

I know an older chap who has been driving Japanese cars since the 1970's, won't buy anything else, was banging on a few months back about how he gave up on British cars back then as they were built so badly and wouldn't ever buy them again.
I said, you've changed your mind then....pointing at his recently bought, new Honda Jazz
He wouldn't believe me when I said "'cos that's made in Swindon"

Interesting point of view. But I take this stance...So there are a few spanner monkeys on a UK assembly line to get a tax break. The only benefit that has to our economy is a few less unskilled people on the dole. However all Japanese cars are conceived and designed in Japan. All the profits go to the head quarters in Japan (plus their shareholders of course) which is clearly a benefit to the Japanese economy. Just because the final assembly of parts is sometimes done in the UK (for particular models) that does not change the fact Japan are exporting their products to UK consumers. Therefore their cars are totally Japanese.

All Japanese cars are not designed in Japan - Nissan has a major engineering facility in Cranfield, and Honda and Toyota both design in the UK too. They also have design facilities in the US, Germany, Spain, etc, etc. Their vehicles are increasingly designed for the local market - it is much more than "final assembly", and many UK companies are involved in supplying parts to them, supporting jobs and profits in this country.
Japanese cars, built in the UK, are exported to Europe and even Japan!

I'm afraid you've made the classic mistake of believing what you read in the Daily Mail....

[mph1977]

jazzyjeff said:

"The synergy is optimal..."

What a depressingly efficient comment

vell this is vat happens vhen you let ze chermans runs things

[sila bika]

DonkeyApple said:

k-ink said:

aeropilot said:

k-ink said:

I have not considered Bentley British for years. Just like the BMW MINI. I would be surprised if anyone felt differently, so it seems like a non story.

Conversely it can work the other way around.

I know an older chap who has been driving Japanese cars since the 1970's, won't buy anything else, was banging on a few months back about how he gave up on British cars back then as they were built so badly and wouldn't ever buy them again.
I said, you've changed your mind then....pointing at his recently bought, new Honda Jazz
He wouldn't believe me when I said "'cos that's made in Swindon"

Interesting point of view. But I take this stance...So there are a few spanner monkeys on a UK assembly line to get a tax break. The only benefit that has to our economy is a few less unskilled people on the dole. However all Japanese cars are conceived and designed in Japan. All the profits go to the head quarters in Japan (plus their shareholders of course) which is clearly a benefit to the Japanese economy. Just because the final assembly of parts is sometimes done in the UK (for particular models) that does not change the fact Japan are exporting their products to UK consumers. Therefore their cars are totally Japanese.

Technically it is a combination of where the employees are, where the shareholders are and the corporate tax structure.

With a global business employing high labour numbers it is usually the case that the local labour taxes are much larger than the corporate tax in the home market after the global revenues have been washed through the various offshore structures etc.

Then with listed firms, obviously the domestic exchange will benefit from flow revenues but the real money is made by the shareholders. Us Brits and our pension funds are significant holders of major Nikkei constituents.

As a smaller aside, want the MX5 designed by Brits?

Yes indeed, in Worthing of all places! It was styled in California and the engineering was done in the UK. I am proud to have been part of the team that did it.

[New POD]

Where is the BIG mini made again ? Where do JCB make the most diggers? Where do Rolls Royce Build some Jet Engines ?

Austria, India, and Singapore.

Welcome to GREAT GREAT British Brands.

[z89]

I would prefer them to be made in Germany.
Imagine if the emerging markets were sold the made in UK cars, they would fall apart after 3 months and damage the brand image in those markets.

[TVR1]

Speedraser said:

I'm a bit partial to Chrystal Meth

No worries, history does that to me sometimes too.

[can't remember]

Rich1973]ordan210 said:

MINI would not be the brand it is now and employ all these people in the UK with out BMW. British heritage with Germany engineering.

Might not be fully British any more but would not still around with out the Germans. So im not going to complain.


quote]

Mini would have been doing just fine without BMW. They couldnt pass up the opportunity after they had finished pillaging the Rover group to take the Mini brand, and leave the twitching corpse of what was left after claiming to have tried to help. it was all BS but seemingly not many people cared.

Oh come on. What Mini? The one Rover didn't invest in?

[AER]

New POD said:

Where is the BIG mini made again ? Where do JCB make the most diggers? Where do Rolls Royce Build some Jet Engines ?

Austria, India, and Singapore.

Welcome to GREAT GREAT British Brands.

Absolutely nothing wrong with building stuff near the markets they serve, provided the decision-making remains at and the profits return to the point of origin. Unfortunately, due to excessive taxation and regulation in the anglosphere, the former happens increasingly whilst the latter becomes less and less common.

[Speedraser]

TVR1 said:

Speedraser said:

I'm a bit partial to Chrystal Meth

No worries, history does that to me sometimes too.

No, I didn't say that.