I'll buy the car but can you remove all the electronics?
Discussion
mrmr96 said:
How would you market such a car?
When a car fails on so many objective benchmarks I think you may have a hard time selling it based on the subjective feel.
Fast laps/stats can be understood from the pages of a mag or the film on TV or youtube. But the feel of a car is the kind of thing where you can only understand by driving it yourself. Now your car may be nirvana itself, but how do you get people sat in it so they "get it" and you can get some sold?
Not saying it wouldn't make a great product, but I do think it would be a hard product to market. (E.g. look at the perfume adverts on TV, they're trying to sell a smell using pictures and words. You're trying to sell a feeling, also using pictures and words.)
Maybe there's other products which rely on this kind of marketing. How do they do it? Do they have the problem of being only one product in a market where the others are able to be sold objectively and this one has to be sold subjectively?
Marketing in the automotive world isn't about selling a car; it's about selling a lifestyle.When a car fails on so many objective benchmarks I think you may have a hard time selling it based on the subjective feel.
Fast laps/stats can be understood from the pages of a mag or the film on TV or youtube. But the feel of a car is the kind of thing where you can only understand by driving it yourself. Now your car may be nirvana itself, but how do you get people sat in it so they "get it" and you can get some sold?
Not saying it wouldn't make a great product, but I do think it would be a hard product to market. (E.g. look at the perfume adverts on TV, they're trying to sell a smell using pictures and words. You're trying to sell a feeling, also using pictures and words.)
Maybe there's other products which rely on this kind of marketing. How do they do it? Do they have the problem of being only one product in a market where the others are able to be sold objectively and this one has to be sold subjectively?
Watch any car advert and you'll see as much focus on the driver being young and successful as there is on the car itself. I can only think of one exception to this - the Audi R8.
Also, car journos do talk about the feel of a car. A lot.
DonkeyApple said:
I'm sure there are analogies to a jet fighter and its computers being more thrilling than a Spitfire but for the thrill of flying for pure pleasure I would argue that a Spitfire would be more engaging, more tactile and more emotional.
I bet back in the day when the first jet planes came out, the Spitfire pilots couldn't wait to dump them & get in the newer, faster model though.
Regarding marketting, I was put in mind of the fantastic Honda adverts which place the emphasis firmly on engineering, and the odd Audi advert which does the whole space age white room immaculate testing lab sort of thing... Mazda, too, ran a campaign to expone the benefits of weight reduction in the Mazda 2.
I think it is the weight of all this kit that dulls modern cars, you are dragging around 500 kilos of electric seats, windows, ECUs, air-con, airbags, ICE gear etc.
All the advantage of alloy engines and suspension is negated by this additional weight which in return requires bigger, heavier over assisted brakes and in turn massive wheels and beefier suspension parts.
"Simplify and add lightness" is the answer but who would purchase such a car, probably not enough buyers to make it viable.
All the advantage of alloy engines and suspension is negated by this additional weight which in return requires bigger, heavier over assisted brakes and in turn massive wheels and beefier suspension parts.
"Simplify and add lightness" is the answer but who would purchase such a car, probably not enough buyers to make it viable.
Tyre Tread said:
Didn't the OP perfectly describe the essence of a TVR.
Driving the Chimaera you know that when you got it right it was you who got it right and if you get it wrong you'll damn well know about it!
A sense of achievement in every corner.
I think I probably did. Others have mentioned Caterhams, Ginetta etc but what made TVR stand out was that the interiors were plush, comfortable places, not spartan. Where TVR fell down was being low volume and not the top of their game in regards to handling, out of the box.Driving the Chimaera you know that when you got it right it was you who got it right and if you get it wrong you'll damn well know about it!
A sense of achievement in every corner.
The kind of car I am thinking about is something like an MP4 but with the big gadgetry removed, set up solely to work with high end mechancial engineering. It has all the comforts inside and uses great modern technology for the build and set up. It wouldn't need the 600+ bhp, 400 would probably be more than enough. But the whole experience of driving it would be down to the owner. So, you couldn't use it easily in the wet, it wouldn't be as good for the daily commute but as a toy for when you just want to go and drive I think it would be far better.
When I test drove the MP4 I thought it was a truly amazing car but of no real use to me as it would be my 'fun' car and I didn't get much fun from driving it on the roads. Likewsie with the 458, it's amazing, but not exciting in a mechanical sense.
I'd dearly love a 458 built in the style of an F40, in essence.
300bhp/ton said:
Two comments:
-why buy new? Plenty of rebuilt classics that fulfil the brief perfectly.
-not all new cars are like this.
I've gone down the route of rebuilt classics and that is where I am happy, it ticks all the boxes. But I am really asking in this thread, whether it is a shame that mainstream manufacturers don't pick up on this fast growing trend in the classic market and make modern equivalents.-why buy new? Plenty of rebuilt classics that fulfil the brief perfectly.
-not all new cars are like this.
As mrmr said marketing such a product would be a disaster in the modern environment but there is a side of me that thinks there is a growing desire for modern, mainstream sports cars without all the complex stuff.
northwest monkey said:
DonkeyApple said:
I'm sure there are analogies to a jet fighter and its computers being more thrilling than a Spitfire but for the thrill of flying for pure pleasure I would argue that a Spitfire would be more engaging, more tactile and more emotional.
I bet back in the day when the first jet planes came out, the Spitfire pilots couldn't wait to dump them & get in the newer, faster model though.DonkeyApple said:
I think I probably did. Others have mentioned Caterhams, Ginetta etc but what made TVR stand out was that the interiors were plush, comfortable places, not spartan. Where TVR fell down was being low volume and not the top of their game in regards to handling, out of the box.
Catch-22 scenario - as you've said yourself, you're in the minority so by definition cars that fit your criteria are going to be low volume. Lotus tried to market based on feel and involvement and are struggling. Noble's M600 is very low volumes and very expensive. Ginetta, Caterham, Morgan all offer light weight over power and luxury and are touted as excellent handling, feelsome cars, but most buyers are not prepared to make the compromise.DonkeyApple said:
I've gone down the route of rebuilt classics and that is where I am happy, it ticks all the boxes. But I am really asking in this thread, whether it is a shame that mainstream manufacturers don't pick up on this fast growing trend in the classic market and make modern equivalents.
As mrmr said marketing such a product would be a disaster in the modern environment but there is a side of me that thinks there is a growing desire for modern, mainstream sports cars without all the complex stuff.
Fast-growing perhaps, but still a tiny proportion of the car market. The advantage of it being difficult to do (as an individual) is that those determined to do it generally ensure they have the expertise/training/familiarity to handle a relatively powerful car with no/few driver aids.As mrmr said marketing such a product would be a disaster in the modern environment but there is a side of me that thinks there is a growing desire for modern, mainstream sports cars without all the complex stuff.
I completely agree with the OP. I also, perhaps unusually on PH, don't really care how fast a road car is because timing's banned on roads and track days and neither are competitive - I just want something that's good to drive. On the most part, electronics ruin the driving experience in most cars. I don't mind stability control safety nets that can be switched off - even when switched on you can still drift my 3 series. It's the electronic throttles, silly engine management, ePAS etc that I can't stand. I do play computer games and I work in IT, so I don't think electronics should be removed from cars, but its use needs to be very carefully engineered not to ruin the driving experience; most car companies fail at that spectacularly. The annoying irony is that the root of the failure is often a desire to make cars better.
Not quite on the same level as a super car in my case but I do not like over kill on electronics in cars. In my current situation I need more than two seats in my car every now and again, so after much deliberation I picked a Clio 200 cup specced with nothing extra but recaros and speedline’s. Renaultsport seemed to be the only hatch that gave me the option not to have auto-lights, auto-wipers, projector lights, DRL’s etc. I don’t need any of the things mentioned to get me to the train station and I certainly don’t need them for a Sunday morning blast. If even lower specs were available I would of specced out the power steering! I understand that people do want all the niceties especially if they spend a bit of time in their car but it’s nice to have the choice. Although I am told that there is no market anymore for 'stripped back' cars.
Thinking about a two car garage in the near future. Going back to Lotus but this time an S1 though with proper windy windows!
As mentioned clever marketing makes people think that they need rain sensitive wipers, I doubt anyone thought “what a ball ache this wiper stalk is, wish someone would make a way of automating them”
Anyone contemplated the Zolfe Orange for a low gadget driving machine?
http://www.zolfe.com/
Thinking about a two car garage in the near future. Going back to Lotus but this time an S1 though with proper windy windows!
As mentioned clever marketing makes people think that they need rain sensitive wipers, I doubt anyone thought “what a ball ache this wiper stalk is, wish someone would make a way of automating them”
Anyone contemplated the Zolfe Orange for a low gadget driving machine?
http://www.zolfe.com/
I agree with the concept (I have a Caterham after all) however the OP appears to be asking for a light-weight, involving, feelsome, powerful, luxury, comfortable supercar - some of those criteria are very difficult to combine in one car and risk the car falling into a worst-of-both-worlds scenario where it's neither light, fun and involving enough nor powerful, luxurious and comfortable enough.
yorkshireegg said:
Marketing in the automotive world isn't about selling a car; it's about selling a lifestyle.
Watch any car advert and you'll see as much focus on the driver being young and successful as there is on the car itself. I can only think of one exception to this - the Audi R8.
Also, car journos do talk about the feel of a car. A lot.
I reckon that at least part of that is due to the draconian restrictions on what you can show in a car advert. When they removed the ability to show any exhileration or excitement, they removed a lot that you could say about the car.Watch any car advert and you'll see as much focus on the driver being young and successful as there is on the car itself. I can only think of one exception to this - the Audi R8.
Also, car journos do talk about the feel of a car. A lot.
ewenm said:
I agree with the concept (I have a Caterham after all) however the OP appears to be asking for a light-weight, involving, feelsome, powerful, luxury, comfortable supercar - some of those criteria are very difficult to combine in one car and risk the car falling into a worst-of-both-worlds scenario where it's neither light, fun and involving enough nor powerful, luxurious and comfortable enough.
If Lotus engineered the suspension geometries of something very TVR like in every other way I reckon DA and myself would be very happy chappies?MX-5s and Elises are fine but lack grunt. The "ideal" tactile sports car doesn't need 1000bhp and 4 turbos, but it does need to be fast enough to require respect. Full throttle from a rolling start in first gear without wheelspin should not be possible except for on warm, dry days and warm tyres. 2nd and 3rd should be marginal in the wet. It ought to be borderling dangerous to drive fast in the wet. Even the Ginetta G60 is a bit too slow to really compell me.
I love my Cerbera. Something designed without bumpsteer etc would be nice though.
STW2010 said:
Buy an Ariel Atom. Sod any comforts and electronics, just go mental!
Apparently though the early cars were blighted with hideous drive by wire throttle response. Nothing's safe from it these days! My 2-Eleven has a DBW throttle, but thank god Lotus have engineered it properly so it feels great. I hear that later Atoms solved that problem by the way; it's just an interesting point.There's no reason why a car with servo brakes, PAS, DBW throttle etc can't drive well - look at the Lotus Evora for example. Car manufacturers just don't care, that's all. It's why Jackie Stewart walked away from Ford.
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