I'll buy the car but can you remove all the electronics?
Discussion
My car has it but can turn it off, I tend not to as not used to it as yet and want some space before I experiment too much.
The driver aids are one thing but the other issues are all the NVH is dialed out in a lot of cars, part of the experience, a lot of exhaust noise is legislated out, clutch delay vales, dopey electronic throttles, dual mass flywheels, power limits in low gears and stuff like that, the ESP only cuts in when you are going pretty fast.
The driver aids are one thing but the other issues are all the NVH is dialed out in a lot of cars, part of the experience, a lot of exhaust noise is legislated out, clutch delay vales, dopey electronic throttles, dual mass flywheels, power limits in low gears and stuff like that, the ESP only cuts in when you are going pretty fast.
J4CKO said:
My car has it but can turn it off, I tend not to as not used to it as yet and want some space before I experiment too much.
The driver aids are one thing but the other issues are all the NVH is dialed out in a lot of cars, part of the experience, a lot of exhaust noise is legislated out, clutch delay vales, dopey electronic throttles, dual mass flywheels, power limits in low gears and stuff like that, the ESP only cuts in when you are going pretty fast.
The driver aids are one thing but the other issues are all the NVH is dialed out in a lot of cars, part of the experience, a lot of exhaust noise is legislated out, clutch delay vales, dopey electronic throttles, dual mass flywheels, power limits in low gears and stuff like that, the ESP only cuts in when you are going pretty fast.
And to be fair, with the ESP in my BMW I can drift without it interferring and I can also oversteer pretty much up to the point of crossed arms before it kicks in. As for understeer, I'm not going there on the public road; too dangerous. For me then ESP doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's electronics getting in the way of control that I hate, not safety nets, which usually don't make the slightest difference to me driving enjoyment of a car, and if they do you can just switch them off.
JimbobVFR said:
DonkeyApple said:
I've gone down the route of rebuilt classics and that is where I am happy, it ticks all the boxes.
I'm loving all three of your cars, even the boring daily appeals 
Don1 said:
DonkeyApple said:
That is the only new super car that I can think of that ticks the boxes. Quite expensive though. 
You wouldn't be able to fit in it mate.Bear with me here, but the older Vipers fit the bill.... Shame the pedal box is horrific.
Another car for midgets? How depressing. Or are just implying I'm some kind of freak?
Vipers were good. Rented on in Vegas. Absolutely s
te interiors though. I kind of sit on both sides of the fence - although not in the same ball park as the OP's prospective car choices!
My 'everyday' car is a BRZ (I really only use it on weekends due to a company van). It fells heavy. It's a bit numb when it comes to steering feel, throttle feel, seats of the pants feel. It takes me a while to find the correct way to drive the car (still haven't to be honest). I felt reassured though, when I entered a damp corner at a fairly modest speed and then the electronics started to kill some oversteer. I'm not used to RWD and I'm having trouble getting 'to grips' with it, if you pardon the pun. I was grateful for ESP that day though.
My other car, a 'modernised' Pug 309 GTi, is completely different. Similar power to the BRZ but 300 kilos lighter with only the aftermarket ECU and CD player as electronics! I can jump in and instantly enjoy the drive. The harder I drive it, the more fun it is. I don't need electronics to help me with oversteer - I can sort it myself thanks very much!
My 'everyday' car is a BRZ (I really only use it on weekends due to a company van). It fells heavy. It's a bit numb when it comes to steering feel, throttle feel, seats of the pants feel. It takes me a while to find the correct way to drive the car (still haven't to be honest). I felt reassured though, when I entered a damp corner at a fairly modest speed and then the electronics started to kill some oversteer. I'm not used to RWD and I'm having trouble getting 'to grips' with it, if you pardon the pun. I was grateful for ESP that day though.
My other car, a 'modernised' Pug 309 GTi, is completely different. Similar power to the BRZ but 300 kilos lighter with only the aftermarket ECU and CD player as electronics! I can jump in and instantly enjoy the drive. The harder I drive it, the more fun it is. I don't need electronics to help me with oversteer - I can sort it myself thanks very much!
DonkeyApple said:
Don1 said:
DonkeyApple said:
That is the only new super car that I can think of that ticks the boxes. Quite expensive though.
You wouldn't be able to fit in it mate.Bear with me here, but the older Vipers fit the bill.... Shame the pedal box is horrific.
Another car for midgets? How depressing. Or are just implying I'm some kind of freak?
Vipers were good. Rented on in Vegas. Absolutely s
te interiors though. 
) 
DonkeyApple said:
I'm clearly getting old and while of the computer generation never played video games after pubity so I'm not a lover of all the gadgetry that has filled modern performance cars.
I don't mind it in barges and utility cars as they are specifically to get you from A to B etc.
However, in sportscars I really would live to see a return to a more mechanical bias over electrical.
Not going to happen if the manufacturer wants to get European or US type approval. Traction control and stability control are now mandatory, afaik.I don't mind it in barges and utility cars as they are specifically to get you from A to B etc.
However, in sportscars I really would live to see a return to a more mechanical bias over electrical.
vrooom said:
just pull the fuse?
There's a lot more to it than the presence of electricity though.As mentioned by another poster, NVH engineering has removed most of the vibrations and audio cues that a mechanical driver would use.
Steering is over-assisted and almost all the feedback has been engineered out - as Mike Cross put it when talking about the F-Type "not too much because one driver's feedback is another driver's noise".
Of course you can switch off all the electronics, but the car is fundamentally numb. Frankly, the modern car was never really intended to be driven without the electronics. I'm not about to suggest that a PH driving god in a TVR can match computers for track pace using nothing but seat-of-the-pants feel, but I'm far happier pressing on in a mechanical car with feedback than I am in a modern car with the driver aids switched off. The latter un-nerves me a bit. They always feel detached, but that turns to distrust for me when the electronics are turned off. The first I'll know the car isn't happy is as we're reversing through a drystone dyke at 60mph.
Welshwonder said:
My 'everyday' car is a BRZ (I really only use it on weekends due to a company van). It fells heavy. It's a bit numb when it comes to steering feel, throttle feel, seats of the pants feel...
My other car, a 'modernised' Pug 309 GTi, is completely different. Similar power to the BRZ but 300 kilos lighter with only the aftermarket ECU and CD player as electronics! I can jump in and instantly enjoy the drive. The harder I drive it, the more fun it is.
That is interesting to hear. The GT86 / BRZ is on my short wish list. Disappointing to hear one of the best modern (normal price) drivers cars is still left wanting against old school cars. I have trouble growing up and letting go of older lightweight real hot hatches as it is. This is not helping! My other car, a 'modernised' Pug 309 GTi, is completely different. Similar power to the BRZ but 300 kilos lighter with only the aftermarket ECU and CD player as electronics! I can jump in and instantly enjoy the drive. The harder I drive it, the more fun it is.
k-ink said:
Welshwonder said:
My 'everyday' car is a BRZ (I really only use it on weekends due to a company van). It fells heavy. It's a bit numb when it comes to steering feel, throttle feel, seats of the pants feel...
My other car, a 'modernised' Pug 309 GTi, is completely different. Similar power to the BRZ but 300 kilos lighter with only the aftermarket ECU and CD player as electronics! I can jump in and instantly enjoy the drive. The harder I drive it, the more fun it is.
That is interesting to hear. The GT86 / BRZ is on my short wish list. Disappointing to hear one of the best modern (normal price) drivers cars is still left wanting against old school cars. I have trouble growing up and letting go of older lightweight real hot hatches as it is. This is not helping! My other car, a 'modernised' Pug 309 GTi, is completely different. Similar power to the BRZ but 300 kilos lighter with only the aftermarket ECU and CD player as electronics! I can jump in and instantly enjoy the drive. The harder I drive it, the more fun it is.
My wife first: she had a mk1 Ford Ka - cable throttle, no PAS, no servo on the brakes and an old Ford Kent engine up front. Great handling and good to drive with natural and linear controls. The Ka was starting to give her trouble and she wanted air con, a bit more comfort and less noise, so we set about trying to find a replacement. The trouble was that everything modern she test drove felt to her like a bouncy castle: really high up, very 'tippy' (i.e. lots of roll), underdamped, laggy DBW throttles, over assisted steering, over assisted brakes and just felt awful to drive. The best of the bunch were probably the Yaris and Civic, but even these were just too numbed off and jelly like for her. We ended up with a 2007 Civic Type R (known as the FN2). The steering and brakes have a bit of weight behind them to make their operation easier and feel more natural, they're both linear, although sadly the electronic throttle isn't - the top ~30% does ~60% of the work, which is a deliberate 'sporty' mapping from Honda (grrr!), but feels weird and unnatural to use. There's also a small delay at the top of the throttle pedal - not as bad as most cars, but it's there and causes her to stall occasionally. The extra power over the Ka is a great thing, and it's a wonderful engine. Overall - we're very happy but it took a while to find the right car. We wish cars existed that drove like the Ka but with just more performance, less noise and more comfort/spec.
As for me, my main gripe is drive by wire throttles with a lag on them, and after a dissapointing episode with a 330ci that had over a second's delay between pressing the throttle and the engine responding, I test drove an E46 M3, another 330ci and a plethora of other cars (350Z, Cayman S, etc), only to find that they all did it and to me were the proverbial chocolate teapots. I owned an Elise for many years, which was wonderful, but I ended up needing more space so it got relegated to a second car. I tried to do as someone said above they do, which was to run an older car, so I bought a 1998 BMW 328i sport coupé (one of the last cars BMW made with a cable throttle), but keeping it driving like new proved really expensive (I spent £5500 in 18 months before I sold it), so I settled on a Z4 Coupé as a replacement (numb steering, a slight lag on the throttle, but otherwise great). Eventually the electronic throttle and clutch delay valve on the Z4C drove me nuts and I sold it. I wouldn't have ever considered an oil burner, but a chance drive in an E90 320d made me realise that it had no delay on the throttle at all, together with handling virtually as good as the Z4 Coupé, so I bought one of those and I've been happy with it ever since. My weekend car has changed to a 2-Eleven now, which has DBW throttle but great response, although the servo brakes are totally unecessary and feel weird in such a focused track car.
Our choices are narrowing, but we're ok so far! Cars aren't getting worse, which is the good news - DBW throttle delays are getting smaller all the time and brakes aren't getting more sensitive and grabby. Most companies offer linear controls, with just a few notable exceptions (e.g. Porsche steering, which is deliberately non linear and of course the aforementioned CTR throttle travel - why do they do that? Idiots.). Lotus are going from strength to strength, but their daily drivers (e.g. the Evora) are eye wateringly expensive sadly. I don't really see a return to cars like the Ka though, which offer great driving dynamics and decent controls for under £10k, which is a great shame. I really don't care how fast a car is - if it's got stupid controls then I'm not interested.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 20th November 16:51
Tickle said:
Anyone contemplated the Zolfe Orange for a low gadget driving machine?
http://www.zolfe.com/
No but I would if was looking...http://www.zolfe.com/
sc0tt said:
Maybe all you purists should buy a bike? 165bhp through the rear wheel. 188kgs, no TC, no SC, no ABS and no anti wheelie.
That should get you the experience you are after.
I can get that in a single seater or my 2-Eleven though, and I may get a bike one day as another toy. The main challenge is a daily driver that'll carry bikes, boards, kayak, cello, guitars, passengers etc, but still offer driving enjoyment.That should get you the experience you are after.
ETA: I read a test of an R1 by a WSB rider who rode off and came back after five minutes complaining of throttle lag...
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 20th November 17:39
RobM77 said:
I can get that in a single seater or my 2-Eleven though. The main challenge is a daily driver that'll carry bikes, boards, kayak, cello, guitars etc, but still offer driving enjoyment.
ETA: I read a test of an R1 by a WSB rider who rode off and came back after five minutes complaining of throttle lag...
Luckily I have a total lack of WSB like talent then and haven't picked up on such thing.ETA: I read a test of an R1 by a WSB rider who rode off and came back after five minutes complaining of throttle lag...
No doubt you if vettel test drove your car he would probably say the same.
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