RE: Ford Fiesta ST vs Renault Clio RS200

[loudlashadjuster]

s m said:

38k plus nowadays for a non-M non-convertible 3-series though

If you look back at 1990 prices, the BMW is now more expensive in comparison

Pish & tiffle

Autocar's 1991 review of the 325i SE (E36 I know, but I can't find a 1990 E30 325i price) pegs it at £22,615, or £41,100 in today's money. The 328i would be even more.

The list price of the the equivalent F30 328i SE is £29,400 today.

Even if you want to compare against the current top spec non-M 3-Series 335i M Sport automatic, its list is only £39,385.

I'd wager that BMW UK's discounts are more generous nowadays in these PCP times than they were in 1990/1 as well.

[s m]

loudlashadjuster said:

Froomee said:

I paid just over £10k for new Fiesta ST in 2006 and just under £11k in 2008 for an ST500........

That's great, but no-one was talking invoice cost, just list price, and who ever pays that on cars like these?

BTW the list price for both of those cars equates to about £17k today, cheaper than the equivalent Renaultsport models but that is as expected given the power and capability deficit of the older Fords.

Here are some old 1990 list prices with some new cars that are similar-ish .....

1990 Model	List Price	2013 Model	List Price
Fiesta XR2i	£10850	Fiesta ST	£16995
Renault 5GTT	£10350	Clio 200	£18995
E30 325 Sport	£22175	BMW 435i Sport	£41435
E30 M3	£28200	E92 M3	£54720*

• Recent price as now N/A

[s m]

loudlashadjuster said:

s m said:

38k plus nowadays for a non-M non-convertible 3-series though

If you look back at 1990 prices, the BMW is now more expensive in comparison

Pish & tiffle

Even if you want to compare against the current top spec non-M 3-Series 335i M Sport automatic, its list is only £39,385.

I think we're in agreement there though? I was comparing it with a high spec model within the range ( as the ST is ). Was leaving some headroom for the ( possible ) RS or M model.

I'd have said personally that the E30 325i Sport was the 'equivalent' in the range to the XR2i and sat below the M model - E30 M3 .....nowadays I'd see that comparison as the ST vs the 435i Sport ( sits below the forthcoming M3 ( M4 nowadays I realise ))

[loudlashadjuster]

s m said:

I think we're in agreement there though? I was comparing it with a high spec model within the range ( as the ST is ). Was leaving some headroom for the ( possible ) RS or M model.

I'd have said personally that the E30 325i Sport was the 'equivalent' in the range to the XR2i and sat below the M model - E30 M3 .....nowadays I'd see that comparison as the ST vs the 435i Sport ( sits below the forthcoming M3 ( M4 nowadays I realise ))

Agreed in terms of the relative model placement, but the figures still show the 1990 BMWs the same price or cheaper than their (vastly more competent) 2013 equivalents, no?

1990 Model	1990 Price	2013 Model	2013 Price	2013 Equivalent of 1990 Price	2013 car is
Fiesta XR2i	£10,850	Fiesta ST	£16,995	£20,890	19% cheaper
Renault 5GTT	£10,350	Clio 200	£18,995	£19,925	4% cheaper
E30 325 Sport	£22,175	BMW 435i Sport	£41,435	£42,695	3% cheaper
E30 M3	£28,200	E92 M3	£54,720*	£54,295	0.8% more expensive

[s m]

loudlashadjuster said:

Agreed in terms of the relative model placement, but the figures still show the 1990 BMWs the same price or cheaper than their (vastly more competent) 2013 equivalents, no?

1990 Model	1990 Price	2013 Model	2013 Price	2013 Equivalent of 1990 Price	2013 car is
Fiesta XR2i	£10,850	Fiesta ST	£16,995	£20,890	19% cheaper
Renault 5GTT	£10,350	Clio 200	£18,995	£19,925	4% cheaper
E30 325 Sport	£22,175	BMW 435i Sport	£41,435	£42,695	3% cheaper
E30 M3	£28,200	E92 M3	£54,720*	£54,295	0.8% more expensive

Yes, indeed, that was what I was illustrating - the Fiesta hadn't gone up as much as other cars comparatively

[ahenners]

The reviews are clear; the Fiesta is the better car of the two. I haven't seen any review conclude the Clio is better.

There's an interesting point about the past form of Renaultsport in this article though. A slightly updated version further down the line may turn the Clio into a better contender, just like the Megane 265.

[hondansx]

Glad someone pointed out a little thing called inflation - intensely irritating seeing people moan about the price of cars; open your eyes!

When it comes to the road test, i think they're getting more and more irrelevant. For anything other than a pure weekend or track car, things like a tolerable ride and 'infotainment' system are actually important to me. A test drive doesn't reflect the every day reality of 99% of people. A daily needs to do a bit of everything, and ultimately, that's why the 'expensive' and 'dull' Golf GTI continues to sell like hot cakes.

Lets see what the sales figures end up like, but i'm not so sure Renault are being silly trying to get a slice of VW's pie.

[Froomee]

loudlashadjuster said:

Froomee said:

I paid just over £10k for new Fiesta ST in 2006 and just under £11k in 2008 for an ST500........

That's great, but no-one was talking invoice cost, just list price, and who ever pays that on cars like these?

BTW the list price for both of those cars equates to about £17k today, cheaper than the equivalent Renaultsport models but that is as expected given the power and capability deficit of the older Fords.

Fiesta ST in 2008/2009 was £13595 list so £3.5k in 4 years.

You could get one for £10kish....... A new one is approximately £15k even with discount which is actually a huge increase in a relatively short space of time. The actual price paid is what matters in reality..... Fairly recently the cars were significantly cheaper with larger discounts hence all the comments regarding price.

Any amount of statistics can be shown to show whatever you want as inflation, etc is calculated in different was, etc but ultimately zig I went to buy a car today equivalent to what I purchased 4 years ago I'd have to pay 40-50% more.

[TameRacingDriver]

hondansx said:

Glad someone pointed out a little thing called inflation - intensely irritating seeing people moan about the price of cars; open your eyes!

Aye wonderful, except that in real terms, peoples pay is at the same level, relatively, as it was 10 years ago, so people are poorer. House prices have also rocketed, meaning that mortgages and rents have gone up. Lets not forget the greedy utility companies / petrol companies / government taking more and more. Is it really any wonder people think cars are expensive? £17K is a hell of a lot of money to me, and the vast majority of the population.

What I find intensely irritating is people on here who are obviously quite well off downplaying how expensive things are. Open your eyes!

[PorkRind]

TameRacingDriver said:

So the Fiesta is:-

• Cheaper
• Faster Acceleration
• Better MPG and emissions
• Has a manual box
• Arguably better looking

No brainer, it'll also like still work in 10 years, unlike the Renault, who can't even get the basics right, never mind all the gadgetry on this thing. I look forward to reading about all the gearbox problems in years to come.

Ive got a 11 year old clio 172 phaze 2 with 203000 miles on it, nothing electrical or non service item has ever gone wrong. Usual ignorant response!

[Rs2oo]

PorkRind said:

Ive got a 11 year old clio 172 phaze 2 with 203000 miles on it, nothing electrical or non service item has ever gone wrong. Usual ignorant response!

I'll give you £420 for it which in 1990 would have been £2894 and 23p. If I buy it from you in 2022, I will give you 10,000 Afghanis (about £108 now) but worth half a goat then as we will of course be a Muslim State by then.

[TameRacingDriver]

PorkRind said:

Ive got a 11 year old clio 172 phaze 2 with 203000 miles on it, nothing electrical or non service item has ever gone wrong. Usual ignorant response!

Don't get me started on fking 172s mate, been there, got the T-shirt, a mistake I won't be repeating. Ignorant? I've had two, never again, even the new one was fking ste!

But never mind, I'm sure it wont be long before the resident RS fanboys come along to tell me I bought a couple of sheds, as per usual...

[Rs2oo]

TameRacingDriver said:

But never mind, I'm sure it wont be long before the resident RS fanboys come along to tell me I bought a couple of sheds, as per usual...

I think you bought a couple of sheds as per usual.

[pSynrg]

Love my 182. st loads of problems and plenty of expense.

Regret the clearing out of wallet and credit cards every time and then realise it's all worth it on the drive home...

Fanboy'ism makes me want the RS 200T (yes yes, RS200 has been taken already, twice) and I like the overall look of it - the headlights though... hmmm... not the most successful.

But the ST is without a doubt the better package (but for me not better looking.)

No, I'll stick with my 182 and just save up for the next bill

[TameRacingDriver]

pSynrg said:

Regret the clearing out of wallet and credit cards every time and then realise it's all worth it on the drive home...

The issue I had, was the fact it cleared out my wallet, yet to me at least, the driving experience wasn't really all that, but then its well documented on here that I think they are overrated.

To be honest though, these days, I find it hard to get excited about any FWD hot hatch, they just don't float my boat these days.

[framerateuk]

TameRacingDriver said:

The issue I had, was the fact it cleared out my wallet, yet to me at least, the driving experience wasn't really all that, but then its well documented on here that I think they are overrated.

To be honest though, these days, I find it hard to get excited about any FWD hot hatch, they just don't float my boat these days.

I think every manufacturer, including Renault have a come a long way in the last 10 years.

I'd never owned a Renault before my 250, and it's been brilliant. Far less problems than the Fiesta ST I owned before it. It's stood up to the abuse of trackdays and driven back like it had been parked in the garage all day. Can't complain and I'd have no issues buying another Renault, in fact, I probably will.

[k-ink]

AER said:

There is only one RS200 that's worth talking about and this isn't it...

Quite. How they have the cheek to even think about naming their crappy shopping trolley after the Group B icon is quite absurd and arrogant. Daft French tits.

(That is all. I only saw the headline and didn't read the article).

[Tickle]

k-ink said:

Quite. How they have the cheek to even think about naming their crappy shopping trolley after the Group B icon is quite absurd and arrogant. Daft French tits.

(That is all. I only saw the headline and didn't read the article).

Quite sure the French tits as you put it called it a Renaultsport Clio 200 not an RS200. Not sure who decided on calling the clio an RS200. I agree though it is pretty annoying.

[iloveboost]

gofasterrosssco said:

"a 3mm drop in ride height" - really, whats the point?

So they can say it's lowered to any numpty who asks. Really there's no point lowering anything beyond whatever gives you the most suspension travel as it mucks up the camber curve of any strut suspension and the ride gets massively worse for a small decrease in roll for a given spring rate. I bet it's only lowered 3mm on the front struts as well to give it less lift at high speed. Ford know what they're doing.

[iloveboost]

Spyder5 said:

These two cars really have reached flabby middle age, its time for a new generation of hot super mini.

It's basically the same weight, power, price, tyre size, insurance group and specification of a Civic Type-R of about ten years ago, and they sold awfully didn't they?!