RE: VTEC just kicked in: PH Blog
Discussion
Axionknight said:
dukebox9reg said:
186lbft isnt a bad number but at 5300! In day to day driving that is still pretty high up and to use that much tq you are still going to be looking like a hooligan.
driving at 30-50 you're still going have to rev it out to nip in and out of traffic and look a bit of a tube doing it at 6k plus with a shouty exhaust (which i'm assuming you have)
Even 1.6 turbos can match that tq figure in standard trim from naff all revs and thats my point you can drive 'quickly' with much less effort and without looking like a tube (i'm not saying you are but plenty of Type R owners with just the generic 5 inch jap style can hanging off the back bumpers are)
The thing is, you don't have to screw them into next week to make reasaoanble progress - they are still a two litre petrol engine and I'm sorry, but if people find that unacceptable in terms of power and torque for driving around town then they have some seriously queer expectations of what a car needs to deliver. After all, is a 2.0 isn't enough lord help the majority of the population in their 1.4's and 1.6's right?driving at 30-50 you're still going have to rev it out to nip in and out of traffic and look a bit of a tube doing it at 6k plus with a shouty exhaust (which i'm assuming you have)
Even 1.6 turbos can match that tq figure in standard trim from naff all revs and thats my point you can drive 'quickly' with much less effort and without looking like a tube (i'm not saying you are but plenty of Type R owners with just the generic 5 inch jap style can hanging off the back bumpers are)
dukebox9reg said:
186lbft isnt a bad number but at 5300! In day to day driving that is still pretty high up and to use that much tq you are still going to be looking like a hooligan.
driving at 30-50 you're still going have to rev it out to nip in and out of traffic and look a bit of a tube doing it at 6k plus with a shouty exhaust (which i'm assuming you have)
Even 1.6 turbos can match that tq figure in standard trim from naff all revs and thats my point you can drive 'quickly' with much less effort and without looking like a tube (i'm not saying you are but plenty of Type R owners with just the generic 5 inch jap style can hanging off the back bumpers are)
True - but it makes nearly 160lb/ft at 3200rpm, which isn't exactly high up the rev range. Also, the car is pretty light (around 1200kg) so when cruising at 3000rpm, the car is far from 'gutless'. The point I'm making is that there's bags more midrange potential to be had from this engine, much of it released with just a remap and manifold upgradedriving at 30-50 you're still going have to rev it out to nip in and out of traffic and look a bit of a tube doing it at 6k plus with a shouty exhaust (which i'm assuming you have)
Even 1.6 turbos can match that tq figure in standard trim from naff all revs and thats my point you can drive 'quickly' with much less effort and without looking like a tube (i'm not saying you are but plenty of Type R owners with just the generic 5 inch jap style can hanging off the back bumpers are)
FN2 owner here.
I find the lack or torque comments a bit unfair. I drive mine on the daily grind to work and only ever feel the need to ring it's neck for giggles. Normal over takes, nipping out at junctions, joing DCs etc are perfectly easy keeping it below 5K RPM and off Vtec. It's just like driving a normal 2.0 NA petrol hatchback. And isn't that the whole point? Keep it in the normal zone and it's just a normal (albeit a bit stiffly sprung) car, put it in the crazy zone and it's a crazy car.
Modern turbo cars are quicker, more frugal and have more accesable power. You can't argue against it, it's fact. They do, in my opinion though, lack character. Most of the engines just feel like a wooly whooshy thing under the bonnet, a slighlty revvier and less noisey diesel. But then these days most people under 25 learn't to drive ina small diesel hatchback and to them the characteristics of an NA engine seem rubbish as they're used to instant torque from almost idle.
Oh dear, I appear to be getting old.
I find the lack or torque comments a bit unfair. I drive mine on the daily grind to work and only ever feel the need to ring it's neck for giggles. Normal over takes, nipping out at junctions, joing DCs etc are perfectly easy keeping it below 5K RPM and off Vtec. It's just like driving a normal 2.0 NA petrol hatchback. And isn't that the whole point? Keep it in the normal zone and it's just a normal (albeit a bit stiffly sprung) car, put it in the crazy zone and it's a crazy car.
Modern turbo cars are quicker, more frugal and have more accesable power. You can't argue against it, it's fact. They do, in my opinion though, lack character. Most of the engines just feel like a wooly whooshy thing under the bonnet, a slighlty revvier and less noisey diesel. But then these days most people under 25 learn't to drive ina small diesel hatchback and to them the characteristics of an NA engine seem rubbish as they're used to instant torque from almost idle.
Oh dear, I appear to be getting old.
dukebox9reg said:
lol the wife has a 1.4 with 75 lbft that is tiring work to make progress. My point is a turbo engine with the same power is if not as much fun as a screaming N/A that one day where you are trying to throw yourself out of your on seat 95% of the time you can make much better point to point progress with a lot less effort with a modern turbo.
Making better progress doesn't necessarily mean having more fun; just like modern paddle gearboxes are quicker, but most would agree for fun factor a manual is preferred . I admit I'm a bit of a Honda fan, but I also have turbo cars too, but I always find myself thoroughly enjoying the Honda experience.
And at no time with the EP3 did I feel like it was lacking in the lower rev range, what with the excellent 6 speed box and eager engine. Yes it comes alive after 5500 rpm, but that doesn't mean it's dull below. Normal driving happilly allowed me to pull away in 2nd with absolutely no fuss, and below vtec was normally enough to nip by most traffic etc
Coming from an S2000, which will have more torque than some of the other Honda engines...
...95% of the time, the 'lack of' torque is fine, but then there's that odd occasion when it feels like the car is just making noise and not getting anywhere...
But when you compare stats of a 2.0 litre n/a, the VTEC engines aren't exactly down on torque, it's comparable, like for like, but people forget this when they're used to turbo diesels, which warp the perception somewhat..
...95% of the time, the 'lack of' torque is fine, but then there's that odd occasion when it feels like the car is just making noise and not getting anywhere...
But when you compare stats of a 2.0 litre n/a, the VTEC engines aren't exactly down on torque, it's comparable, like for like, but people forget this when they're used to turbo diesels, which warp the perception somewhat..
Cable said:
dukebox9reg said:
lol the wife has a 1.4 with 75 lbft that is tiring work to make progress. My point is a turbo engine with the same power is if not as much fun as a screaming N/A that one day where you are trying to throw yourself out of your on seat 95% of the time you can make much better point to point progress with a lot less effort with a modern turbo.
Making better progress doesn't necessarily mean having more fun; just like modern paddle gearboxes are quicker, but most would agree for fun factor a manual is preferred . I admit I'm a bit of a Honda fan, but I also have turbo cars too, but I always find myself thoroughly enjoying the Honda experience.
And at no time with the EP3 did I feel like it was lacking in the lower rev range, what with the excellent 6 speed box and eager engine. Yes it comes alive after 5500 rpm, but that doesn't mean it's dull below. Normal driving happilly allowed me to pull away in 2nd with absolutely no fuss, and below vtec was normally enough to nip by most traffic etc
Cable said:
dukebox9reg said:
lol the wife has a 1.4 with 75 lbft that is tiring work to make progress. My point is a turbo engine with the same power is if not as much fun as a screaming N/A that one day where you are trying to throw yourself out of your on seat 95% of the time you can make much better point to point progress with a lot less effort with a modern turbo.
Making better progress doesn't necessarily mean having more fun; just like modern paddle gearboxes are quicker, but most would agree for fun factor a manual is preferred . I admit I'm a bit of a Honda fan, but I also have turbo cars too, but I always find myself thoroughly enjoying the Honda experience.
And at no time with the EP3 did I feel like it was lacking in the lower rev range, what with the excellent 6 speed box and eager engine. Yes it comes alive after 5500 rpm, but that doesn't mean it's dull below. Normal driving happilly allowed me to pull away in 2nd with absolutely no fuss, and below vtec was normally enough to nip by most traffic etc
VTEC = FUN
DIESEL = BORING
HorneyMX5 said:
Modern turbo cars are quicker, more frugal and have more accesable power. You can't argue against it, it's fact. They do, in my opinion though, lack character. Most of the engines just feel like a wooly whooshy thing under the bonnet, a slighlty revvier and less noisey diesel. But then these days most people under 25 learn't to drive ina small diesel hatchback and to them the characteristics of an NA engine seem rubbish as they're used to instant torque from almost idle.
That's the thing that puts me off about modern FI petrols, sure they have great midrange thump but on those occasions when you really open the taps, there's virtually nothing left in reserve because the peak power occurs so low and plateaus. Don't get me wrong, I'd love 200bhp at 4000rpm, but only if it carried on to 400bhp at 8000rpm, there always needs to be a power reserve over daily driving and with a VTEC that reserve is HUGE.
dukebox9reg said:
Never said making better progress was more fun at all. Its more relaxing if anything. I like DSG flappy paddles.......
Fair point, but isn't being a 'Pistonhead' about enjoying cars? And my daily commute to work would almost always see me winding up the revs, down the country lanes for a bit of fun, at some point or another; it's what would get me through the dreary monotony of it all. A dull car would make wonder why I bother...
Kozy said:
That's the thing that puts me off about modern FI petrols, sure they have great midrange thump but on those occasions when you really open the taps, there's virtually nothing left in reserve because the peak power occurs so low and plateaus.
I think that's one of the things I love most about the setup in the FN2. The power is still building right into the limiter. It's a strange sensation and means that rather than shifting when the power starts to flatline you find you need the shift lights to chatch the change in the nano second before you collide with the limiter. Very entertaining. The trouble with this sort of power delivery is that it is very hard to actually use it on the road. My 182 had a similar sort of power delivery with a kick at 5k which pulled right on to the redline. It was only possible to use this range legally in second gear between about 50 and 70 mph. In first it would just eat the front tyres and in third it engaged at almost exactly the NSL.
I would much rather have a big capacity 6+ cylinder engine over a screaming 4-pot any day on the road. On the track I'm sure it's a whole different story.
I would much rather have a big capacity 6+ cylinder engine over a screaming 4-pot any day on the road. On the track I'm sure it's a whole different story.
Cable said:
Fair point, but isn't being a 'Pistonhead' about enjoying cars?
And my daily commute to work would almost always see me winding up the revs, down the country lanes for a bit of fun, at some point or another; it's what would get me through the dreary monotony of it all. A dull car would make wonder why I bother...
This. My commute used to be country lanes all the way, but having to save the pennies for a house has meant taking the dreary 13 mile, 40mph A road to save 5mpg and it bores me to death.And my daily commute to work would almost always see me winding up the revs, down the country lanes for a bit of fun, at some point or another; it's what would get me through the dreary monotony of it all. A dull car would make wonder why I bother...
Revs and lots of gearchanges are fun.
To quote the sex analogy again, VTEC is like chatting up a hot woman, getting her back to your place and making sweet music all night. For some though, that's too much effort, much easier to watch porn and have a tug. Same ending isn't it.
Kozy said:
dukebox9reg said:
Never said making better progress was more fun at all. Its more relaxing if anything. I like DSG flappy paddles.......
You like flappy paddles and diesel torque. This thread is not for you.As i've said the vtec thing is good but as a 20 year old (or 20 year old mentality). Not a 30year+ with a child and a 'professional' job.
Maybe i'm getting old before my years but feeling the need to bang my head against a limiter for the same performance I can get from turbo engine in day to day driving has past me. (Im talking day to day hatchbacks etc not supercars, thats a different kettle)
The engines are fun but not enough for me to get my rose tints out.
+1
Not a fan of wringing it to the redline, rather the performance lower down. Also wringing it out in the vtec kicked in fashion - would this not wear the engine down quicker. Sure this must be a recipe for smoking engines due to increased wear on internals like piston rings, crankshaft bearings.
Not a fan of wringing it to the redline, rather the performance lower down. Also wringing it out in the vtec kicked in fashion - would this not wear the engine down quicker. Sure this must be a recipe for smoking engines due to increased wear on internals like piston rings, crankshaft bearings.
dukebox9reg said:
I just dont get the vtec thing. Id rather have a quick car day to day without having to ring its neck to get any performance. Yes its nice on a track. My commute to work is not a track....
Im looking forward to the turbo Civic
Im looking forward to the turbo Civic
dukebox9reg said:
As i've said the vtec thing is good but as a 20 year old (or 20 year old mentality). Not a 30year+ with a child and a 'professional' job.
I'm 28 with a nipper and a professional job. I still enjoy every oppourtunity to nut it in my ATR. When I'm not nutting it, it pootles about like any other 2 litre NASP engine, which is more than enough.If you need to use 200bhp constantly, that says more about your driving that the car.
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