RE: AMG and Aston Martin tie the knot
Discussion
cathalm said:
I think perhaps many of you need to look up the meaning of the word "Bespoke". In these terms it would mean unique, custom or made to order.
There is no point babbling on about whether it will be this AMG engine or that, the announcement is explicit.
Well, yes, but I seriously doubt they'll go to the lengths of making it 100% built from unique parts. Just as the units supplied to Pagani are described as bespoke, they can trace their lineage to other AMG units (whether M120 or M158) and I'm sure some parts are shared with other AMGs or even normal Mercedes models.There is no point babbling on about whether it will be this AMG engine or that, the announcement is explicit.
I see this deal to be compatible to BMW's relationship with Alpina! Alpina get a basic platform fettle engines and hand build interiors. Hopefully Aston don't share physical shapes but the potential is there with modern chassis to create your own form on a basic substructure.
Alpina innovations that prove successful and popular find there way into future BMW engines. Everyone wins except those who fear change and would rather see a company die slowly trying to sell increasingly outdated engineering.
Better to innovate and continue than cease to exist. Its always possible that when 3D printing/manufacture comes of age and the cost of producing your own engine and bespoke parts drop it will allow a return to completely independent manufacture.
Alpina innovations that prove successful and popular find there way into future BMW engines. Everyone wins except those who fear change and would rather see a company die slowly trying to sell increasingly outdated engineering.
Better to innovate and continue than cease to exist. Its always possible that when 3D printing/manufacture comes of age and the cost of producing your own engine and bespoke parts drop it will allow a return to completely independent manufacture.
I think it's nothing like Alpina/BMW, AMG will supply engines that go into cars Aston designs and produces, that's not what Alpina do at all.
If the deal was simliar to the Alpina/BMW model then Mercedes would provide a car and Aston would fettle the engine/suspension and add some different leather which is not what is proposed at all.
If the deal was simliar to the Alpina/BMW model then Mercedes would provide a car and Aston would fettle the engine/suspension and add some different leather which is not what is proposed at all.
The deal will help keep AM in business (sales last year were only c3800 units) and, I suspect so far as Daimler Benz is concerned, out of the hands of rival manufacturers (the non cash deal is said to include a 5% non-voting stake and a non-voting observer on the board). Who might the rivals might be? The Chinese could be interested; or perhaps even the VAG group has not yet given up on its appetite for more and more acquisitions - which possibly could pain DB even more than a Chinese takeover.
For those that think that Aston Martin could go it alone, I say no chance! They simply do not have the resources to do so.
For those that think that Aston Martin could go it alone, I say no chance! They simply do not have the resources to do so.
RX7 said:
Whilst i am sure this makes total business sense, i cant help feel a little sad that another piece of the car industry rolls over and runs to Germany. It almost seems like no one else is capable of making cars, except the Japanese and lesser extend USA, even Italy had to admit defeat with Lamborghini 
Whilst i have nothing against Germany, how come they are getting it so right?
There's a little to motor industry without saying just Japan and the US. With respect FIAT group aren't German. Nor are Renault, Peugeot, Citroen, Kia, Hyundai, Tata or those Chinese brands I don't know about.Whilst i have nothing against Germany, how come they are getting it so right?
To be fair I don't think that all of the above share parity with VAG, BMW or Mercedes but I'll bet that at least some of the above either make fantastic engines (Ferrari sell lots of red hats too) and/or are shifting enough units to have the attention of the German manufacturers.
t about the history of either company and if AMG makes Aston's better to drive then I'm all for this.oldtimer2 said:
The deal will help keep AM in business (sales last year were only c3800 units) and, I suspect so far as Daimler Benz is concerned, out of the hands of rival manufacturers (the non cash deal is said to include a 5% non-voting stake and a non-voting observer on the board). Who might the rivals might be? The Chinese could be interested; or perhaps even the VAG group has not yet given up on its appetite for more and more acquisitions - which possibly could pain DB even more than a Chinese takeover.
For those that think that Aston Martin could go it alone, I say no chance! They simply do not have the resources to do so.
Added to that it adds significant volume for AMG engine production, and that means economies of scale. So good news for AMG, good news for Aston, and good news for big engines with lots of cylinders.For those that think that Aston Martin could go it alone, I say no chance! They simply do not have the resources to do so.
AM slide gently and bit by bit into German ownership, DB aquire shares via investor sell off and AM becomes another notch on the bedpost of german vehicle manufacturing circus.
just my cynical view but not many good UK vehicle brands left to acquire, watch out for the Morgan sell out as well.
I know AMG still produce a few V12s but they don't seem to feature highly on the agenda for future development. I wouldn't imagine Aston would buy or be sold the Pagani versions of the AMG V12.
The prospect of AMG building I6s is very interesting though.
I've got nothing against V8s, and while a cross-plane V8 does make a nice sound, it seems to be pretty much the only layout anyone in the luxury performance car sector is interested in now. There are sound reasons for this, but when you've heard one cross-plane V8 you've kinda heard them all.
I6s and V12s make wonderful noises which compliment the idea of a British sports car very well. A V12 does, IMHO, carry an awful lot of prestige points too whereas the V8 is more a symbol of brute force and ignorance.
The current Aston Martin V12 is an old engine now and whilst still very charming, is probably due for replacement. Hopefully Aston Martin can get some engines with multiples of 6 cylinders out of AMG in the future, as there's no denying that AMG build rather wonderful engines.
The prospect of AMG building I6s is very interesting though.
I've got nothing against V8s, and while a cross-plane V8 does make a nice sound, it seems to be pretty much the only layout anyone in the luxury performance car sector is interested in now. There are sound reasons for this, but when you've heard one cross-plane V8 you've kinda heard them all.
I6s and V12s make wonderful noises which compliment the idea of a British sports car very well. A V12 does, IMHO, carry an awful lot of prestige points too whereas the V8 is more a symbol of brute force and ignorance.
The current Aston Martin V12 is an old engine now and whilst still very charming, is probably due for replacement. Hopefully Aston Martin can get some engines with multiples of 6 cylinders out of AMG in the future, as there's no denying that AMG build rather wonderful engines.
Carl_Docklands said:
If its good enough to go into a Pagani, its good enough to go into an Aston.
This. The Zonda still uses that AMG V12, and it's one of the best performance engines ever made. Sometimes loyalists just have to let the engine xenophobia go! After all some of MG, Mini and Rovers best engines were and are made by Honda, BMW and Ford. 
Donkey62 said:
Does this mean Aston will finally get a decent modern gearbox with the AMG engine?
For me that's far bigger news than AMG engines because its one thing that really dated Astons entire range was gearbox especially in everyday driving.
Hear hear - AMG engine with a contemporary gearbox wrapped in Aston aesthetics would make for a truly package.For me that's far bigger news than AMG engines because its one thing that really dated Astons entire range was gearbox especially in everyday driving.
loudlashadjuster said:
Does it actually matter though? If the AMG engines in Astons sound unique and have their own character, who cares if they share a block, inlet manifold, water pump, crank sensor or bolt with other AMG engines? How would you even know, unless they tell you?
Do you extend this concern to other components? Do you hate the fact that AM buy gearboxes from ZF that are - shock - also used in lesser cars?
What about the Bosch engine management? It's not bespoke and is also used on humdrum saloons and the like.
Are you enraged that they still use hopelessly outdated Visteon/Volvo audio and navigation?
Tyres? How dare Aston use tyres that other manufacturers fit?!
Yes, the engine is the 'heart' of a car, but in these days of electronic throttles, sound symposers and piped audio an engine can be made to sound and react like pretty much anything the manufacturer wants it to. I'm sure Astons will still have a unique character whether the engines have 95% or 5% commonality with other AMG units.
I'd far rather have an Aston that has a competitive, hand-built engine mated to a great transmission if that meant modern telematics and a move away from the slight whiff of desperation that always seems to pervades them.
It absolutely matters. It’s not only what a car does, it’s also what the car actually is.Do you extend this concern to other components? Do you hate the fact that AM buy gearboxes from ZF that are - shock - also used in lesser cars?
What about the Bosch engine management? It's not bespoke and is also used on humdrum saloons and the like.
Are you enraged that they still use hopelessly outdated Visteon/Volvo audio and navigation?
Tyres? How dare Aston use tyres that other manufacturers fit?!
Yes, the engine is the 'heart' of a car, but in these days of electronic throttles, sound symposers and piped audio an engine can be made to sound and react like pretty much anything the manufacturer wants it to. I'm sure Astons will still have a unique character whether the engines have 95% or 5% commonality with other AMG units.
I'd far rather have an Aston that has a competitive, hand-built engine mated to a great transmission if that meant modern telematics and a move away from the slight whiff of desperation that always seems to pervades them.
My concern is over the most major components, not the ancillary stuff, which has been made by outside suppliers for many decades. The engine and the platform/structure are the most important parts of a car, and these need to be unique to Aston Martin. Work with AMG to develop bespoke Aston engines -- wonderful. Use "retuned-for-Aston" AMG engines -- horrible.
I don't object to sound-amplifying things that pipe actual engine sound into the cabin, but the fakery -- like BMW's playing a recording of the M5/6 "engine sound" through the audio system -- is utterly disgusting
"Motoren" is the company's middle name, and they no longer bother to make their M5/6 engine actually sound good 
I will NEVER buy a car that fakes its engine sound. For me, part of the pleasure I get out of a good car is the sounds it makes, but abject fakery so completely turns me off that there is NO chance I'll consider an M5/6. Appalling.BTW, with respect to M-B electrical systems and such things, my Aston (MY09) has been FAR more reliable than my wife's Mercedes (MY12). Clearly Aston needs access to current tech, but that said, I have ZERO interest in all the newest driver aids such as lane-keeping, radar-braking and cruise control, self-parking, etc. I want to drive, thank you very much. To sort of paraphrase Kimi; leave me alone and let me drive.
Pagani: In clear contrast to Pagani, Aston has a near century-long heritage of making their own engines, and it’s part of what makes an Aston a thoroughbred. Pagani NEVER made their own engines, but rather started from the beginning with having AMG make engines for them. BTW, how much of the AMG-built engine in the Huayra or the Zonda is/was shared with any AMG engine installed in a Mercedes? Certainly no Mercedes leaves the factory with a Huayra-spec engine. How different is it from the AMG65 or AMG65 Black engine (I don’t know)?
McLaren F1: McLaren, like Pagani (and in clear contrast to Aston Martin), had never made its own engine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it the F1’s BMW V12 is bespoke to the F1 – you don’t see it in any BMW (or other) car. It was based on the existing V12, but was thoroughly reengineered for the F1. Now, with the 12C and P1, they had an engine designed expressly for them by Ricardo rather than retuning someone's existing engine. Yes, its roots can be traced to the old Nissan GTP engine, but it's so far removed from that as to qualify as bespoke. Again, this is what Aston needs from AMG. They don't need a from-scratch unique engine -- and the huge costs involved -- but one that is sufficiently removed from the AMG origins to be considered "bespoke."
Again, the notion that the only means of survival is off-the-shelf retuned AMG engines dropped into Astons is preposterous. It’s merely the expedient, less expensive path.
Would a Ferrari be a Ferrari if they started using retuned AMG engines? Not a chance. It’s no different with Aston Martin.
McLaren F1: McLaren, like Pagani (and in clear contrast to Aston Martin), had never made its own engine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it the F1’s BMW V12 is bespoke to the F1 – you don’t see it in any BMW (or other) car. It was based on the existing V12, but was thoroughly reengineered for the F1. Now, with the 12C and P1, they had an engine designed expressly for them by Ricardo rather than retuning someone's existing engine. Yes, its roots can be traced to the old Nissan GTP engine, but it's so far removed from that as to qualify as bespoke. Again, this is what Aston needs from AMG. They don't need a from-scratch unique engine -- and the huge costs involved -- but one that is sufficiently removed from the AMG origins to be considered "bespoke."
Again, the notion that the only means of survival is off-the-shelf retuned AMG engines dropped into Astons is preposterous. It’s merely the expedient, less expensive path.
Would a Ferrari be a Ferrari if they started using retuned AMG engines? Not a chance. It’s no different with Aston Martin.
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