Do you use engine braking?

[SteveinTurkey]

GJR said:

jamieduff1981 said:

I've noticed a lot of people saying their TVRs really don't like it. Mine doesn't seem to be fussed by it when road driving even in the cold and wet. Obviously you don't do it when going round bends etc. I guess the Rver V8s engine brake even harder or the shorter wheelbase makes them a bit twitchier.

Depends how aggressively you engine brake. The reason to avoid significant engine braking in a TVR or any other HP car, especially rwd, is that their high torque combined with low revs (if you don't heel and toe) can cause the rear wheels to lock up inducing a spin. All of us will engine brake to some extent with no issues, but in a performance car it can give you the fun of pops and bangs, or it can give you a heart attack. ;o)

Heel and Toe!! I have been driving some several decades and last used this technique driving Land Rovers on steep hills in the early 80s! But since that time I have always driven HP cars and not once have I ever done a "heel and toe" and cannot think of an occasion where I would have needed to. If you you cause the rear wheels to lock up then you are attempting to select too low a gear for the speed of the car. I should mention that it comes naturally to me to use some throttle to increase the engine speed to make the gear change smooth.

[topless360]

The MX5 is very good at engine braking. Sometimes I like to see if I can slow down without using the brakes, to the point where the driver behind must think my brake lights don't work

I reckon my brake wear is far less for the mileage I do compared to other drivers. I don't do it to save pennies on brake pads, but more for a smoother journey and mechanical sympathy. If you rev match/heel and toe properly, locking rear wheels should never be a problem. I've done many a downshift onto the red line and never had such issues.

[GJR]

SteveinTurkey said:

Heel and Toe!! I have been driving some several decades and last used this technique driving Land Rovers on steep hills in the early 80s! ... I should mention that it comes naturally to me to use some throttle to increase the engine speed to make the gear change smooth.

Heel and toe, increase the engine speed to make the gear change smooth.... are they not just different methods to achieve the same result of rev matching? Saying H&T, whether you use that method or not, is just a simple and understandable way of making the point on a forum. ;oP

[delboy735]

I was told on a driving experience day that "brakes are for stopping, engine is for going", so I don't engine brake to slow the car down.I do however use engine braking to prevent the car speeding up, clearly only used when going downhill.

[topless360]

delboy735 said:

I was told on a driving experience day that "brakes are for stopping, engine is for going", so I don't engine brake to slow the car down.

If this was a generic track experience, I'd suggest that the instructors say that to everybody to avoid rough or mechanically damaging gearchanges, regardless of the ability of each driver on a case by case basis.

[rambo19]

Never, can't see the need.

[ratty6464]

LeoSayer said:

I never change down to increase engine braking but I do use engine braking a lot, I think it's called acceleration sense to avoid using the brakes.

Having said that I do change down if necessary when descending hills to moderate my speed.

Edited by LeoSayer on Friday 20th December 12:54

Edited by LeoSayer on Friday 20th December 12:54

Spot on!

I do it all the time to give a better mpg. Using your brakes is essentiality a waste of energy - acceleration sense is important

[Hol]

I can drive a helluva lot quicker using engine braking and brakes to regulate my slowing and turn in than brakes alone. The bigger the engine and the heavier the flywheel, the greater the effect.
As you brake on the run in, you change down the gears, until you reach the one you will need for the exit of the corner.

The car definitely feels more planted, when you do it.

Brakes fade as well and I really do not think that I would have the same control over the manoeuvre , if I was freewheeling the car with the clutch in, all the time I was try to scrub off speed.

[Poison Tom 96]

I'm a learner and believe in reading the road and engine braking.

[S0 What]

Yes all the time, i usually drive diesel light goods vehicals and had many a brake overheat and fade, never had a clutch overheat and fade though, pluss on modern cars the fuel is cut when using engine braking so better for the wallet and the enviroment.
I had the same conversation with a driving instructor on a driving course, he obv knew fook all about how an ECU controled car works and told us all that it's better for the enviroment to use the brakes to slow and gears to go?

[AnotherClarkey]

S0 What said:

Yes all the time, i usually drive light goods vehicals and had many a brake overheat and fade, never had a clutch overheat and fade though, pluss on modern cars the fuel is cut when using engine braking so better for the wallet and the enviroment.
I had the same conversation with a driving instructor on a driving course, he obv knew fook all about how an ECU controled car works and told us all that it's better for the enviroment to use the brakes to slow and gears to go?

How are you saving more fuel than simply slowing using the brakes?

[MaximumJed]

AnotherClarkey said:

How are you saving more fuel than simply slowing using the brakes?

As long as he is off the throttle, the ECU will cut all fuel (above a certain cut off), so he can roll along not using any fuel. Engine braking alone isn't as effective as brakes, so he may lift off and start changing down on approach to a corner or a roundabout from some distance. If on the other hand, he stayed on the throttle to maintain speed, then braked when closer to the corner or roundabout, he would be using fuel during the on throttle time, therefore engine braking will save a little bit of cash.

Some new cars (VW Passat?) will disengage all gears on decents without the brakes applied to save fuel.

[dave828]

Even though you do save 0.5% or something daft like that on fuel consumption, Id rather wear my brakes out than drivetrain/clutch.

[AnotherClarkey]

MaximumJed said:

As long as he is off the throttle, the ECU will cut all fuel (above a certain cut off), so he can roll along not using any fuel. Engine braking alone isn't as effective as brakes, so he may lift off and start changing down on approach to a corner or a roundabout from some distance. If on the other hand, he stayed on the throttle to maintain speed, then braked when closer to the corner or roundabout, he would be using fuel during the on throttle time, therefore engine braking will save a little bit of cash.

Some new cars (VW Passat?) will disengage all gears on decents without the brakes applied to save fuel.

And if he came off the throttle at exactly the same time as if he was engine braking and used the brakes in moderation to achieve the same rate of deceleration? How much would he save then?

As a braking method this doesn't seem very good - only moderate deceleration rates are possible, driver skill is necessary to smooth out the process and the braking effort generally only goes through two wheels which might lock or unbalance the car if the driver is ham-fisted (footed). Makes a nice noise though, that must be it.

[Road2Ruin]

dave828 said:

Even though you do save 0.5% or something daft like that on fuel consumption, Id rather wear my brakes out than drivetrain/clutch.

Cod's wallop! I run defensive driving and fuel saving courses and planning ahead, changing down early and reading the road better - not using your brakes, can reduce fuel consumption by 20%. My own car went from 39mpg to 47mpg.

[AnotherClarkey]

Road2Ruin said:

Cod's wallop! I run defensive driving and fuel saving courses and planning ahead, changing down early and reading the road better - not using your brakes, can reduce fuel consumption by 20%. My own car went from 39mpg to 47mpg.

Clearly, anticipation and avoiding harsh deceleration saves fuel - can you explain why going down through the gears saves more fuel than using the brakes to achieve exactly the same rate of deceleration?

[LocoCoco]

AnotherClarkey said:

Road2Ruin said:

Cod's wallop! I run defensive driving and fuel saving courses and planning ahead, changing down early and reading the road better - not using your brakes, can reduce fuel consumption by 20%. My own car went from 39mpg to 47mpg.

Clearly, anticipation and avoiding harsh deceleration saves fuel - can you explain why going down through the gears saves more fuel than using the brakes to achieve exactly the same rate of deceleration?

I'll try. If your car cuts the fuel supply when engine braking then you use no fuel when slowing down via engine braking. It is impossible to use less than zero fuel therefore using the brakes cannot give better mpg. I realise this doesn't show that it's more efficient, unless you could the savings on brake pads which might heat up a lot if you used them to mimic engine braking.

[AnotherClarkey]

LocoCoco said:

AnotherClarkey said:

Road2Ruin said:

Cod's wallop! I run defensive driving and fuel saving courses and planning ahead, changing down early and reading the road better - not using your brakes, can reduce fuel consumption by 20%. My own car went from 39mpg to 47mpg.

Clearly, anticipation and avoiding harsh deceleration saves fuel - can you explain why going down through the gears saves more fuel than using the brakes to achieve exactly the same rate of deceleration?

I'll try. If your car cuts the fuel supply when engine braking then you use no fuel when slowing down via engine braking. It is impossible to use less than zero fuel therefore using the brakes cannot give better mpg. I realise this doesn't show that it's more efficient.

But the car cuts the fuel supply when you use the wheel brakes too - the engine is still on the overrun. So what is the advantage?

[LocoCoco]

AnotherClarkey said:

But the car cuts the fuel supply when you use the wheel brakes too - the engine is still on the overrun. So what is the advantage?

A smoother ride, for me anyways, and the convenience of not having to move my right foot as much.

[AnotherClarkey]

LocoCoco said:

A smoother ride, for me anyways, and the convenience of not having to move my right foot as much.

Well that's fair enough, it's just that some people seem to think that engine braking is somehow blessed with mystical powers - like the OP who thinks it is so magical that women can't be expected to understand...