Winter tyres vol 2

[HannsG]

Wife's SMAX ecoboost has Quatrac 5s all round so should be OK this winter.

The M140i still on Super Sports. First time my daily is not on winters or all seasons.

[RicksAlfas]

https://youtu.be/bKtnczk8Mxk

Thanks Jon! Very interesting.

[jon-]

Pica-Pica said:

Densetsu said:

Graveworm said:

https://youtu.be/bKtnczk8Mxk

Just thanks to Jon.

Good technical review that. Thanks.

Yes, as a reference point it is.
However, many factors cannot be added. Sunload (although that is often available in altitude chambers). Wind (both chill and drying effect). Ground (subsoil) as opposed to just air temperatures.
Although Jon says his views on the changeover point has been changed, I am not sure it should be. When temperatures reach close to zero, fewer vehicles are on the road, so the warming, drying, and sweeping-up effect of higher volumes of traffic is lost compared to a few degrees higher. Snap cold weather is different to a prolonged period of cold weather, even at the same (air) temperature, because the ground surface and subsurface has had time to come down to a lower temperature. The difference in braking was 5 metres, is a car length, at low speed yes, a long distance, but at a full emergency brake from a higher speed, only represents the distance a prudent driver would leave in inclement weather (disregarding snowy surfaces). A better comparison for wet and dry braking would be varying g-stops (if that does not get auto-corrected).
If seasonal tyre changes are to be made, then, yes, summer and all-season would perhaps be best for most in the U.K., although Continental TS860 winters do make a pretty good effort into the warmer temperatures.

Sadly with tyre testing, it's impossible to test every possible combination of variables. We do what we can to give a guide, then hope peoples common sense will apply our findings to their own personal driving patterns.

My changeover point opinion changed because I didn't believe the 7c rule before, I thought for dry the summer tyre would always win, and for wet, the summer tyre would take an advantage at around 4-5c, not 10c. OUtside of the official test I even tried putting extra energy into the summer tyre to bring the temps up, but it didn't help as much as I thought.

Thanks to everyone else for the kind words, as always, any suggestions for videos will certainly be well received.

[smarty156]

I have a set of wheels with winters on (Michelin Alpins) as we do go to Europe in February and sometimes October. Living in the South East, I'd have gone with a summer set and an all season set rather than full winters if they made any in the right size (rears are 285/30 x 19 and can't seem to find any). Would seem to be a good balance.

[Ron99]

jon- said:

Sadly with tyre testing, it's impossible to test every possible combination of variables. We do what we can to give a guide, then hope peoples common sense will apply our findings to their own personal driving patterns.

Yes, I would expect if you chose a different vehicle, different tyre size, tyres from a different batch, different test track surface and so on, you would get some variation in the results.
But overall your results *feel* about right from my own experiences of summer and all season tyres in a wide range of conditions.

What you've done is provide some of the best information yet.
If people don't like it or disbelieve it, they can always cough up the cash, spare the time, pull the strings and perform their own version.

[Drive Blind]

Good technical review Jon

although to recreate a typical scottish road you need to dump loads of salt on it, to give the road that greasy top layer.
Can you fit a gritter in that tunnel ?

[tr7v8]

Just had the winter wheels put on the Cayenne, local Porsche Centre picks them up from home in a van. You get an appointment for a while you wait swap. Then they wash & check the other wheels & return them a few days later.Cost is around £86 plus VAT.
So they collected them, swapped them on Tuesday & cleared the drains, I now await the summers to be returned.
I would normally swap to winters a bit earlier, typically beginning of November but work & travel have got in the way this year.
The summers ar 275/45 x 19 Vredestein Vortis & the winters are 255/55 x 18 Dunlop Sport 5
It rides much better on the winters & feels more sure footed.

[Ron99]

jon- said:

Thanks to everyone else for the kind words, as always, any suggestions for videos will certainly be well received.

Most tyre tests are performed on good quality surfaces.

It would be interesting to see a selection of tyres (more than one manufacturer and a selection of tyre types from that manufacturer*) tested on a rougher surface typical of British roads although I can imagine that repeatability of test runs and controllability of climate/road conditions would be tricky.

My own 'butt dyno' has me wondering whether more aggressive tread patterns cope better with poorer road surfaces.

• tyre examples

e.g.
Conti Sport, Michelin Pilot Sport, Goodyear Eagle
Conti Prem,
Conti Eco, Michelin Energy Saver, Goodyear EffGrip
Conti All Season, Michelin CrossClimate, Goodyear Vector

[FiF]

Ron99 said:

jon- said:

Sadly with tyre testing, it's impossible to test every possible combination of variables. We do what we can to give a guide, then hope peoples common sense will apply our findings to their own personal driving patterns.

Yes, I would expect if you chose a different vehicle, different tyre size, tyres from a different batch, different test track surface and so on, you would get some variation in the results.
But overall your results *feel* about right from my own experiences of summer and all season tyres in a wide range of conditions.

What you've done is provide some of the best information yet.
If people don't like it or disbelieve it, they can always cough up the cash, spare the time, pull the strings and perform their own version.

Generally the results 'feel' about right from my own perspective, having driven on all the types, with the exception of the Cross Climate. Certainly Nordics aren't brilliant in UK use except in very cold very snowy conditions at which point they clearly trump everything else, simply because of the 'feeling' of relative security including on ice which was made rather well in the video. As before big surprise was crossover temperature.

But it's an excellent set of information to takeaway and interpret into the context of personal needs and circumstances.

[jamieduff1981]

That's a good review Jon. Taking it in the spirit in which it's intended, I'll still go for a winter tyre rather than all-season in winter because I live in Aberdeenshire where we have hundreds of square miles of land, hundreds of miles of roads and not too many people paying council tax to fund gritters. As a result, and particularly because of exactly where I live, out of my circa 60 miles per day commute, I can reasonably expect temperatures around 0deg C most mornings and the first and last 2 miles in the morning and evenings will be on untreated roads with steep inclines and tight corners.

It's easier to be aware of slightly increased cold wet braking and drive accordingly than it is to stop and steer going down a steep slope with snow or, more commonly, some ice. Linearity of behaviour is key, I think. Summer tyres are great until they're not then they get really bad really fast. All-Seasons seem great in general bleak weather, but less clever on icy surfaces.

I first became a winter tyre user around 4 years ago and they are suitable in the northern half of Scotland which does get more frequent and persistent snow and ice than the majority of the UK population concentrated in the south east of England some 450 miles south of here!

Anecdotally, last winter I used my Ranger pickup to drag an All-Season shod Toyota hatchback out of a ditch which the mature lady driver had reversed into at pace off a long, gentle A road bend. It was wee bit icy as is common here in February/March time.

[Munter]

jon- said:

.

Thanks to everyone else for the kind words, as always, any suggestions for videos will certainly be well received.

Video suggestion. Pressure. How far off for bad effects high and low, and best kit for checking them. Like just how bad some of the in pump pressure gauges really are.

[Kawasicki]

jon- said:

Sadly with tyre testing, it's impossible to test every possible combination of variables. We do what we can to give a guide, then hope peoples common sense will apply our findings to their own personal driving patterns.

My changeover point opinion changed because I didn't believe the 7c rule before, I thought for dry the summer tyre would always win, and for wet, the summer tyre would take an advantage at around 4-5c, not 10c. OUtside of the official test I even tried putting extra energy into the summer tyre to bring the temps up, but it didn't help as much as I thought.

Thanks to everyone else for the kind words, as always, any suggestions for videos will certainly be well received.

Great stuff Jon.

Suggestion from me would be to try a few different surfaces in both wet and dry conditions, but both at low temps. Try to get as broad a range of test results as possible.

Well done again!

[Ron99]

Munter said:

Video suggestion. Pressure. How far off for bad effects high and low, and best kit for checking them. Like just how bad some of the in pump pressure gauges really are.

Generally, I find the best balance is somewhere in the middle between manufacturer 'comfort' pressure and 'economy' pressure.

I've found some forecourt air lines are off by as much as 10%. I now fine-tune my tyre pressures using a stirrup pump which is accurate to +/-1PSI in conjunction with the dash TPMS reading which also seems accurate to within +/-1PSI.

I'm a bit picky about my tyre pressures. I look at the TPMS on almost every journey and if the pressure across the two tyres of an axle is consistently 2PSI apart for a few days, I'll adjust it back to identical PSI readings.

[Kawasicki]

Ron99 said:

If people don't like it or disbelieve it, they can always cough up the cash, spare the time, pull the strings and perform their own version.

Yes. Those people might get very different results though, and then what would we do?

[Turbojuice]

Kawasicki said:

Ron99 said:

If people don't like it or disbelieve it, they can always cough up the cash, spare the time, pull the strings and perform their own version.

Yes. Those people might get very different results though, and then what would we do?

Continue watching Jon I imagine

[Pica-Pica]

Thanks Jon-. My suggestion would be to see how far you could push winter tyres into summer temperature territory. Just a selection of winter tyres v a reference summer tyre. No all-season tyres, no ice or snow testing, just wet and dry between say 10 and 15 deg C. I guess this could well equate to the consistent changeover point at which you would want to guarantee that you would not have to revert back to winters.

[Graveworm]

jon- said:

Thanks to everyone else for the kind words, as always, any suggestions for videos will certainly be well received.

I would like to see worn tyre tests. I have seen the manufacturers tests for 3mm vs 1.6mm and they are pretty compelling, but some independent testing including across a wider range (4mm up for winters if included obviously) would be useful and even, if possible, comparing brands etc.

[Barchettaman]

Graveworm said:

I would like to see worn tyre tests. I have seen the manufacturers tests for 3mm vs 1.6mm and they are pretty compelling, but some independent testing including across a wider range (4mm up for winters if included obviously) would be useful and even, if possible, comparing brands etc.

I can help you with that.

Worn winters are bloody lethal in cold/wet conditions. Just comically understeery.

[Graveworm]

Barchettaman said:

I can help you with that.

Worn winters are bloody lethal in cold/wet conditions. Just comically understeery.

Thanks, how worn, obviously they are no longer winters if they are below 4mm but how do they do at 5 or 6 mm for instance. The Auto Bild test is sobering but it wasn't a true test of natural wear and ageing,. Also the temperatures were not as controlled as the tests we have just seen.

Edited by Graveworm on Friday 6th December 12:57

[RicksAlfas]

Barchettaman said:

I can help you with that.

Worn winters are bloody lethal in cold/wet conditions. Just comically understeery.

Were they really old?
I've run a couple of sets down past 4mm and the only real difference I noticed was poorer snow performance.