RE: Rickard Rydell's BTCC Mondeo to be sold
Discussion
zebedee said:
MG CHRIS said:
For all the moans about ngtc the fact is the rule set is working. We have cars being built by teams that could never have built a car in the s2000 era let alone the 90s and with lack of manufacture support during the late 90s onwards the btcc would be dead if the rules hadn't had changed in 2001 to btc spec.
Teams like speedworks/rar/welchautomotive/team hard would not be on the grid if it wasn't for ngtc regs we have 350bhp 2.0 flame spitting turbo engine various car represented under various teams some big like 888/wsr/motorbase/dynamics/united autosport with the smaller teams like rar/speedworks/team hard etc all in with the mix and with 5 champions on the grid next year and a full grid it as healthy as during the mid 90s.
But on to the 90s era I wasn't old enough to remember it back then so have no attention to it the early 90s to me watching videos on youtube was brilliant it went all to hell when alfa came in and the manafactures took over and almost caused the end of the btcc.
But I will be heading to oulton park for the btcc which will feature 2 races of the new trophy for 90s btcc cars which I can't wait to see.
Is there good, tight quality racing though? Soon after the demise of ST it turned into an Astra bore-fest and then the dodgem mentality sank in and I switched off completely. Seeing the no-name drivers involved (in the majority) doesn't help to persuade me I am missing anything. But am I wrong, is it worth watching again?Teams like speedworks/rar/welchautomotive/team hard would not be on the grid if it wasn't for ngtc regs we have 350bhp 2.0 flame spitting turbo engine various car represented under various teams some big like 888/wsr/motorbase/dynamics/united autosport with the smaller teams like rar/speedworks/team hard etc all in with the mix and with 5 champions on the grid next year and a full grid it as healthy as during the mid 90s.
But on to the 90s era I wasn't old enough to remember it back then so have no attention to it the early 90s to me watching videos on youtube was brilliant it went all to hell when alfa came in and the manafactures took over and almost caused the end of the btcc.
But I will be heading to oulton park for the btcc which will feature 2 races of the new trophy for 90s btcc cars which I can't wait to see.
Sure, spec everything is keeping the costs down but its rapidly turning into Nascar/A1 GP with only the paintjob on the increasingly ugly bodyshells to tell them apart
zebedee said:
ta, happy to remain ignorant of current affairs then and I know my memories of ST days are far from rose-tinted, it really was that good!
I totally agree! I've just been reading up further on the NGTC rules and even now it seems team are taking the piss. Remember the days when BTCC cars were proper family saloons, not hatchbacks? Well the new regs are supposed to have a minimum bodyshell length criteria to try and force a return back to saloons... but both the current BMW 1 series and the upcoming Audi A3 seem to be less than this. Hmmmmm.If at some point int he future I get the urge to watch unknown names duking it out in shopping trollies, I'll go and watch a Nova/Fiesta club race for a lot less money
The 1990s were golden years to watch BTCC. The level of preparation and driving talent and the quality of the racing was of an international standard. The UK racing scene hasn't experienced anything like that since. Having names like Aiello, Biela, Winklehock and Tarquini joining the local guys was a privilege. That the races were broadcast on the BBC with Murray Walker commentating helped promote the sport to a wider audience too. Another positive was the strength of the support card. A glance through race programmes from the 1990s will show many of today's pro drivers during their FFord of FVauxhall campaigns. You knew you were watching superstars in the making.
I wouldn't wish to denigrate today's BTCC, though. The rules package is logical and it's attracted teams in their droves. It's not cheap to build an NGTC but it's nothing like the 1990s, which were self-evidently unsustainable. I think we're lucky to have a BTCC at all after the 2000/2001 implosion. And the template has been copied by V8SC in Australia where it's working nicely as well. I've just started going to BTCC again after virtually a ten year absence and really enjoy it. You can't have a bad day sat in the sunshine at Oulton Park watching BTCC. Really.
I wouldn't wish to denigrate today's BTCC, though. The rules package is logical and it's attracted teams in their droves. It's not cheap to build an NGTC but it's nothing like the 1990s, which were self-evidently unsustainable. I think we're lucky to have a BTCC at all after the 2000/2001 implosion. And the template has been copied by V8SC in Australia where it's working nicely as well. I've just started going to BTCC again after virtually a ten year absence and really enjoy it. You can't have a bad day sat in the sunshine at Oulton Park watching BTCC. Really.
I think some of the anti NGTC / current BTCC comments are a little harsh. I think most would agree what's been done was necessary to keep the entry list healthy.
I think people forget that there were many processional races in the ST era, also markedly more than before 1995, when the aero made the cars more stable.
the 90s was a great era, but the current BTCC is still good entertainment, it isn't perfect, but what motorsport is ?
I think people forget that there were many processional races in the ST era, also markedly more than before 1995, when the aero made the cars more stable.
the 90s was a great era, but the current BTCC is still good entertainment, it isn't perfect, but what motorsport is ?
loudlashadjuster said:
Chris Eyre said:
Super-tetchy Alfa at Snetterton in the mickey-take 1994 season ! Go near the engine with a camera and - BANG!
Why, I'm sure that looks just like any other 155 under the bonnet! /sAnd yes I am biased towards the 155
Baryonyx said:
Say what you will about the rule changes but the fact is that now, the BTCC cars look boring, they sound boring and the racing is dull. It doesn't seem like that long ago that every mechanic's workshop had a picture of a Volvo estate on two wheels on the wall.
Phil Mitchell doesn't agree. 
Anyway, there are far too many threads about the BTCC and rallying that turn into debates comparing old and new. Let's just talk about the old.
Yeah, the whole old vs new debate always appears and never gets interesting.
The Super Touring days were fantastic but the racing is as good now as it's ever been. The NGTCs are infinitely more interesting than S2000s to watch. The general level of driving talent is improving but touring car racing in Europe is suffering relative to GTs. Basically pro drivers are all heading in their droves to race in GT3 because of the strength of just about every domestic championship and the plethora of pan-European championships. The same goes for manufacturers. How many manufacturers are producing touring cars in Europe (for any category) relative to the number who are making GT3 cars?
I think the fact that independent teams can aspire to build touring cars off their own back is fantastic for motor racing in the UK. The cars might not be as clever as the ST days but you can build one for £350k rather than £2 million. That's the difference between a healthy championship and an unhealthy one.
Personally I rather like the NGTCs. They're lairy, sound dramatic, bounce about and generally make a reasonable spectacle. The torque is fierce and they're genuinely exciting to watch at close quarters. I'm not blinkered - I've been to many hundreds of race meetings, including quite a few for saloon cars and seen everything from V8 Supercars around Bathurst to the ITC around Donington. I actually like NGTC and think the BTCC is in rude health.
I'm sorry for those who only have eyes for the 1990s but nothing stands still in motor racing - it's all about the next race.
The Super Touring days were fantastic but the racing is as good now as it's ever been. The NGTCs are infinitely more interesting than S2000s to watch. The general level of driving talent is improving but touring car racing in Europe is suffering relative to GTs. Basically pro drivers are all heading in their droves to race in GT3 because of the strength of just about every domestic championship and the plethora of pan-European championships. The same goes for manufacturers. How many manufacturers are producing touring cars in Europe (for any category) relative to the number who are making GT3 cars?
I think the fact that independent teams can aspire to build touring cars off their own back is fantastic for motor racing in the UK. The cars might not be as clever as the ST days but you can build one for £350k rather than £2 million. That's the difference between a healthy championship and an unhealthy one.
Personally I rather like the NGTCs. They're lairy, sound dramatic, bounce about and generally make a reasonable spectacle. The torque is fierce and they're genuinely exciting to watch at close quarters. I'm not blinkered - I've been to many hundreds of race meetings, including quite a few for saloon cars and seen everything from V8 Supercars around Bathurst to the ITC around Donington. I actually like NGTC and think the BTCC is in rude health.
I'm sorry for those who only have eyes for the 1990s but nothing stands still in motor racing - it's all about the next race.
chevronb37 said:
Yeah, the whole old vs new debate always appears and never gets interesting.
The Super Touring days were fantastic but the racing is as good now as it's ever been.
Don't agree. The minute BTCC started getting micky mouse by adding weight to winning cars and pulling names out of a hat to determine the grid order just goes to show how desperate the series has become. There is no way you can say the current series is anywhere near as good as it once was when it was just teams, drivers and cars battling to win outright with no stupid gimmicks.The Super Touring days were fantastic but the racing is as good now as it's ever been.
It is what it is I suppose but is certainly a massive shadow of its former self imo
For me, the NGTC engineering is a joke. Yes it had to get cheaper, but that was S2000. Now it's gone full shadow car. Only the BTCC history and PR elevates it as the premier series, else otherwise as I wrote, it's Eurocars with tube chassis all over again - and that lasted a handful of seasons before it died.
It relies on the public's total ignorance of what they're looking at. With NGTC, what exists between the front and rear spec subframes is near irrelevant to the performance of the cars, bar setting wheelbase length. They could all be Ladas and Skodas and the racing would be effectively the same.
The proof of that would be to put 20 Lada bodies between spec subframes, put identical livery on them all to the livery the teams use now - and watch the audience melt away.
It's a sleight of hand, and it relies on factors beyond the cars themselves to keep it interesting.
However, the mass motor racing public seem to watch it, which is fine by the rulemakers and promoters provided they maintain an that engaged audience.
It relies on the public's total ignorance of what they're looking at. With NGTC, what exists between the front and rear spec subframes is near irrelevant to the performance of the cars, bar setting wheelbase length. They could all be Ladas and Skodas and the racing would be effectively the same.
The proof of that would be to put 20 Lada bodies between spec subframes, put identical livery on them all to the livery the teams use now - and watch the audience melt away.
It's a sleight of hand, and it relies on factors beyond the cars themselves to keep it interesting.
However, the mass motor racing public seem to watch it, which is fine by the rulemakers and promoters provided they maintain an that engaged audience.
Edited by Chris Eyre on Friday 10th January 14:51
Chris Eyre said:
For me, the NGTC engineering is a joke. Yes it had to get cheaper, but that was S2000. Now it's gone full shadow car. Only the BTCC history and PR elevates it as the premier series, else otherwise as I wrote, it's Eurocars with tube chassis all over again - and that lasted a handful of seasons before it died.
It relies on the public's total ignorance of what they're looking at. With NGTC, what exists between the front and rear spec subframes is near irrelevant to the performance of the cars, bar setting wheelbase length. They could all be Ladas and Skodas and the racing would be effectively the same.
The proof of that would be to put 20 Lada bodies between spec subframes, put identical livery on them all to the livery the teams use now - and watch the audience melt away.
It's a sleight of hand, and it relies on factors beyond the cars themselves to keep it interesting.
However, the mass motor racing public seem to watch it, which is fine by the rulemakers and promoters provided they maintain an that engaged audience.
Thing is, with the extensive re-engineering that went on with the S2000 cars, most of the original character of the cars in terms of handling etc was completely negated. This just makes it cheaper. They still wear the "right" body-panels, but it drives cost down by letting the manufacturers just cut the front off the shell and build a cage with the right pickup points inside it.It relies on the public's total ignorance of what they're looking at. With NGTC, what exists between the front and rear spec subframes is near irrelevant to the performance of the cars, bar setting wheelbase length. They could all be Ladas and Skodas and the racing would be effectively the same.
The proof of that would be to put 20 Lada bodies between spec subframes, put identical livery on them all to the livery the teams use now - and watch the audience melt away.
It's a sleight of hand, and it relies on factors beyond the cars themselves to keep it interesting.
However, the mass motor racing public seem to watch it, which is fine by the rulemakers and promoters provided they maintain an that engaged audience.
In the modern era, on restricted budgets, the only way to get multiple-make championships to be a competition is go this way.
Krikkit said:
Thing is, with the extensive re-engineering that went on with the S2000 cars, most of the original character of the cars in terms of handling etc was completely negated.
I disagree.Take a Seat Leon S2000 BTCC front hub, that's Plato's steed (petrol & TDI) from 2005-2008. It's a production hub, modified. Commonplace to trackdayers and club racers, it has a ball joint spacer for geometry correction and a caliper adapter. It has a neat modification to tie the steering arm to the balljoint. That's all there is to it.
Not even close to Super Tourer ludicrousness, and not extensively reengineered in my view.
chevronb37 said:
touring car racing in Europe is suffering relative to GTs. Basically pro drivers are all heading in their droves to race in GT...
And that is where I took my interest too, in 2001 and I have never looked back. Fact is that exotic sportscars battling it out with world class drivers is just way more exciting.Yes BTCC round Oulton will still be a good watch, but I bet it won't be a patch on the British GT field blasting through the Park this year and, for example, watching Nick Tandy at work. I was only watching it on TV but it was spellbinding stuff.
zebedee said:
chevronb37 said:
touring car racing in Europe is suffering relative to GTs. Basically pro drivers are all heading in their droves to race in GT...
And that is where I took my interest too, in 2001 and I have never looked back. Fact is that exotic sportscars battling it out with world class drivers is just way more exciting.Yes BTCC round Oulton will still be a good watch, but I bet it won't be a patch on the British GT field blasting through the Park this year and, for example, watching Nick Tandy at work. I was only watching it on TV but it was spellbinding stuff.
I don't know whether it's worth further contributing to any debate regarding old vs new. We all go to watch racing regularly and know what we like. If I go to 25 race meetings a year, only one or two of those will be BTCC so I have no massive vested emotional interest. I adore all forms of the sport so I won't ever get too vexed about the state of any particular one because there is always something awesome to watch the following weekend. I doubt a few words from me will ever persuade anybody to go and BTCC in 2014, as much as somebody else denigrating it will dissuade me.
I went to see BTCC every year from 1989 until 2000. There was an undeniable buzz around the championship. Sitting up on the Knickerbrook banking was always a thrill and we all knew we were watching something special. I retain very fond memories of standing at the exit of Old Hall in 1993. My dad had just bought his first BMW (320i E36 coupe) so we were really excited that Schnitzer had come over - and with a pair of E36s for Winkelhock and Soper. Of course Winkelhock seemed very exotic compared to the likes of Sugden and Cleland. Smokin' Jo appeared around Old Hall in the lead, all glorious induction noise. I put a stopwatch on him and he shattered the lap record on the opening lap. Absolute magic!
Still, life moves on, racing moves on and nothing stays the same. I'm glad I saw Super Touring so regularly. But, I enjoy watching NGTCs in action now too. In terms of overtaking and side-by-side battles, the races I've attended in the last couple of years are the equal of those I recall from the 1990s. I still think the best BTCC race I ever saw was the support to Champ Car at Brands in 2003 but that was during the series nadir.
Anyway, I think judging by the enormous crowds, the number of new cars being prepared and the quantity of social media discussion, BTCC is in a good place at the moment. I don't think the comparison with Eurocar is fair - quite apart from anything else, Eurocar V8 was a much better spectacle. Loved watching Barry Lee heaving those old beasts around (there is one currently competing in the CNC Heads Sports/Saloon Championship which is nice to see out again after all these years). The level of commercial and media support for BTCC is on another level. Eurocar never really got off the ground. BTCC has 60 years of history and an ITV contract in its favour for starters!
I genuinely think the series is sustainable. One of my colleagues recently went to a BTCC team for a feature he was writing so I will have a chat with him at ASI about it to get a sense of things from somebody a little closer anyway. Will report back with some more fact to back up my (ill-formed) opinion.
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