RE: Ariel Atom titanium chassis new details
Discussion
MrQuick said:
Can someone explain why you would not go carbon fibre instead of titanium?
Because the one key USP of an Atom is it's Exoskeleton tubular chassis. Remove that, and you've removed its USP! (and even a very crazy man probably isn't going to try to make a CF tubular spacefarme chassis!)kambites said:
Krikkit said:
robinessex said:
wemorgan said:
AFAIK titanium has the same specific stiffness as steel, the same as aluminium.
The stiffness to mass ratio for all metals is the same.
MATERIAL Mass Kg/m3 E MPa Ratio
ALUMINIUM 2,700 70,000 0.04
STEEL 7,800 200,000 0.04
TITANIUM 4,500 110,000 0.04
Edited by robinessex on Friday 10th January 15:30
robinessex said:
I should've added materials (normally) used for structures
MATERIAL Mass Kg/m3 E MPa Ratio
ALUMINIUM 2,700 70,000 0.04
STEEL 7,800 200,000 0.04
TITANIUM 4,500 110,000 0.04
Indeed - so why have they therefore not mentioned the change in torsional stiffness.MATERIAL Mass Kg/m3 E MPa Ratio
ALUMINIUM 2,700 70,000 0.04
STEEL 7,800 200,000 0.04
TITANIUM 4,500 110,000 0.04
Edited by robinessex on Friday 10th January 15:30
A 7% reduction in mass for equal torsional stiffness would be a greater achievement.
MrQuick said:
Can someone explain why you would not go carbon fibre instead of titanium?
It would be just as light and stiff.
I always thought the whole point to use titanium is in high heat applications because of its extremely high melting point?
It would be just as light and stiff.
I always thought the whole point to use titanium is in high heat applications because of its extremely high melting point?
No good in compression loads, CF works as a tub and a CF Atom would make such a good tub a rubber duck would need to drive it.
Titanium has qualities other than high temp. Good material to hold engines to air raft wings, just need to forge to near to the shape you want as machining it is a total pain.
And titanium is corrosion resistant too, which is nice.
Match it with some carbon rims , tit exhaust, and some other nice bits, I'm sure that they can save more than 7% with this chassis.
Pointless, well it's main point is to excite you while draining your bank account, think this new one will do that quite well.
Match it with some carbon rims , tit exhaust, and some other nice bits, I'm sure that they can save more than 7% with this chassis.
Pointless, well it's main point is to excite you while draining your bank account, think this new one will do that quite well.
b14 said:
MrQuick said:
Can someone explain why you would not go carbon fibre instead of titanium?
It would be just as light and stiff.
I suspect some element of crush-resistance is required in the tubular chassis - carbon tube has very poor resistance to crushing force. It would be just as light and stiff.
So like for like, a carbon fibre Atom would be less torsionally stiff than a steel one.
underphil said:
mrmr96 said:
7% better power to weight
7% better acceleration
7% better cornering
7% better braking
etc
Yeah, it's better than adding more power because it affects ALL aspects of handling.
even if the weight saved did work as you've written, it'd be more like 5% once you add in the weight of the driver7% better acceleration
7% better cornering
7% better braking
etc
Yeah, it's better than adding more power because it affects ALL aspects of handling.
Well... 7% improvement would make 7 inches into 7.5 inches. And who wouldn't want that
Obviously we are all perfect physical specimens and our laydees (or indeed gentleman friends) wouldn't change a thing about us. Right?
On the matter of the bloke in his wife's jeans, looking at his boots and scarf, I would guess he arrived on one of those newfangled motorbicycle things. Having jeans flapping around at 70mph can be annoying and rather breezy. Or maybe he is just a fat bloke who likes wearing skinny jeans, leather boots and scarves. Who can say?
Obviously we are all perfect physical specimens and our laydees (or indeed gentleman friends) wouldn't change a thing about us. Right?
On the matter of the bloke in his wife's jeans, looking at his boots and scarf, I would guess he arrived on one of those newfangled motorbicycle things. Having jeans flapping around at 70mph can be annoying and rather breezy. Or maybe he is just a fat bloke who likes wearing skinny jeans, leather boots and scarves. Who can say?
JonnyVTEC said:
MrQuick said:
Can someone explain why you would not go carbon fibre instead of titanium?
It would be just as light and stiff.
I always thought the whole point to use titanium is in high heat applications because of its extremely high melting point?
It would be just as light and stiff.
I always thought the whole point to use titanium is in high heat applications because of its extremely high melting point?
No good in compression loads, CF works as a tub and a CF Atom would make such a good tub a rubber duck would need to drive it.
Titanium has qualities other than high temp. Good material to hold engines to air raft wings, just need to forge to near to the shape you want as machining it is a total pain.
MrQuick said:
Can someone explain why you would not go carbon fibre instead of titanium?
It would be just as light and stiff.
I always thought the whole point to use titanium is in high heat applications because of its extremely high melting point?
Cost. Developing and manufacturing a carbon tub/frame could run into the millions but developing an existing product in a different material, even titanium which is difficult to weld would be a fraction of the cost and as they only plan to make 5 of them it would make it a viable project. It would be just as light and stiff.
I always thought the whole point to use titanium is in high heat applications because of its extremely high melting point?
When I drove an Atom I certainly didn't think it needed to save weight, but then it was well beyond my capability as a driver (300 version).
There's more than just the relatively small weight saving.
1) We're talking about Ariel and so will others be. Good marketing / exposure / brand awareness etc.
2) It's their business 'philosophy' and culture. I imagine having your workforce keep focusing on what you're about is no bad thing.
3) It's upskilling the work force getting them more, wider experience and dipping toes into an area which may be valuable in the future.
4) They'll likely be able to sell them for a profitable premium in any event.
There's more than just the relatively small weight saving.
1) We're talking about Ariel and so will others be. Good marketing / exposure / brand awareness etc.
2) It's their business 'philosophy' and culture. I imagine having your workforce keep focusing on what you're about is no bad thing.
3) It's upskilling the work force getting them more, wider experience and dipping toes into an area which may be valuable in the future.
4) They'll likely be able to sell them for a profitable premium in any event.
kambites said:
Krikkit said:
robinessex said:
wemorgan said:
AFAIK titanium has the same specific stiffness as steel, the same as aluminium.
The stiffness to mass ratio for all metals is the same.Oh wait
Thats a golf
The simple reason that carbon won't work for an Atom is that it would be next to impossible (economically) to tool the moulds to make the curved sections required for the atom chassis. However, cost aside it would be possible to make an extremely light and stiff chassis from carbon - but it would effectively be a tubed monocoque (as are most bike frames with some exceptions such as the Colnago C59), rather than a tubed chassis as we conceive of that in metal tubed construction terms.
I'll be interested to see how this project shapes up. Ti - which by the way to be useful in an engineering context is almost all invariably alloyed with aluminium and vanadium - has some merits in terms of fatigue resistance compared to aluminium. However, it is a pig to machine and needs to be welded in an inert gas environment - by skilled and experienced welders familiar with the material.
I have to say that it all looks like a rather pointless exercised to me, given what the cost to performance gains ratio is likely to look like.
I'll be interested to see how this project shapes up. Ti - which by the way to be useful in an engineering context is almost all invariably alloyed with aluminium and vanadium - has some merits in terms of fatigue resistance compared to aluminium. However, it is a pig to machine and needs to be welded in an inert gas environment - by skilled and experienced welders familiar with the material.
I have to say that it all looks like a rather pointless exercised to me, given what the cost to performance gains ratio is likely to look like.
ES335 said:
The simple reason that carbon won't work for an Atom is that it would be next to impossible (economically) to tool the moulds to make the curved sections required for the atom chassis. However, cost aside it would be possible to make an extremely light and stiff chassis from carbon - but it would effectively be a tubed monocoque (as are most bike frames with some exceptions such as the Colnago C59), rather than a tubed chassis as we conceive of that in metal tubed construction terms.
I'll be interested to see how this project shapes up. Ti - which by the way to be useful in an engineering context is almost all invariably alloyed with aluminium and vanadium - has some merits in terms of fatigue resistance compared to aluminium. However, it is a pig to machine and needs to be welded in an inert gas environment - by skilled and experienced welders familiar with the material.
I have to say that it all looks like a rather pointless exercised to me, given what the cost to performance gains ratio is likely to look like.
it does 2 thingsI'll be interested to see how this project shapes up. Ti - which by the way to be useful in an engineering context is almost all invariably alloyed with aluminium and vanadium - has some merits in terms of fatigue resistance compared to aluminium. However, it is a pig to machine and needs to be welded in an inert gas environment - by skilled and experienced welders familiar with the material.
I have to say that it all looks like a rather pointless exercised to me, given what the cost to performance gains ratio is likely to look like.
1) gets them lots of PR
2) gets some more lucky barstewards atoms with the sublime NA mugen engine
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