RE: Lotus Elise Sport 135: PH Fleet
Discussion
RobM77 said:
The main thing that'd stop you using an Elise in showery weather is the awkward hood in the S1. The S2 hood went up in seconds.
Unless you are totally hamfisted, anyone can get an S1 hood on within a minute of getting out of the car.Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 22 January 15:17
Smitters said:
I love that the car gets under your skin, but every time I get the nagging urge to scratch the Elise itch, what smitten owners call "foibles", or "the experience", and what logical folks call a massive pain in the arse to have to constantly maintain, modify, refit, rebuild and improve with aftermarket wares rear their ugly head.
I just find it makes me a little sad inside that something is 95% of the way to perfect, but you have to love it to keep it, because if your boggo repmobile behaved the same way mechanically, it'd be to total derision in the national motoring press.
Eh? The Elise is a very simple car that very little goes wrong with, or at least no more so than any car of its age. Don't forget most hatches and repmobiles of this vintage are sitting on a scrapheap already, because of their 'foibles' etc. They also cost a hell of a lot less to sort out than german equivalents etc too - someone with a 911 was telling me they use mild steel exhaust hangers and then have the cheek to charge several hundred pounds for new ones! But few people would approach a Porsche thinking the ownership experience will be as ugly as a Lotus.I just find it makes me a little sad inside that something is 95% of the way to perfect, but you have to love it to keep it, because if your boggo repmobile behaved the same way mechanically, it'd be to total derision in the national motoring press.
In 10 years of S1 ownership I have had an AP racing clutch cylinder fail and the window mechanism jammed and a koni shock wear out. But the servicing, done once a year at a specialist has been decidedly average in cost. Seriously, if you are thinking about it, just do it, costs are very low compared with other performance cars.
Its a few hours since I read the article, but isn't he just saying he needed to buy a new heater fan? Hardly a crippling sentence of unreliability surely?
Smitters said:
Not for me. It just seems like a step too far when the repairs, maintenance and modification that are seemingly required are considered the norm.
They aren't required any more so than is the norm for any car of that age, in fact I would argue less so because there is far less to go wrong and they are properly put together.I miss my S1 Elise 111s. In terms of pure driving experience easily the best car I ever owned. It didn't require any work other than servicing during my ownership period. I sold it to get a Monaro VXR - swapped a scalpel for a sledgehammer!
I'd definitely like another - preferably with a Honda engine swap.
Handling wise I found the Elise pretty benign once I'd figured out the limits. It was my first (and to date only) mid-engined car. My old man had a 340R which I drove on track quite bit and I found that easier to spin - presumably the set-up was a bit different and combined with the extra power, less weight and my inexperience I spun it at Snetterton and twice at Spa...
I'd definitely like another - preferably with a Honda engine swap.
Handling wise I found the Elise pretty benign once I'd figured out the limits. It was my first (and to date only) mid-engined car. My old man had a 340R which I drove on track quite bit and I found that easier to spin - presumably the set-up was a bit different and combined with the extra power, less weight and my inexperience I spun it at Snetterton and twice at Spa...
zebedee said:
Smitters said:
I love that the car gets under your skin, but every time I get the nagging urge to scratch the Elise itch, what smitten owners call "foibles", or "the experience", and what logical folks call a massive pain in the arse to have to constantly maintain, modify, refit, rebuild and improve with aftermarket wares rear their ugly head.
I just find it makes me a little sad inside that something is 95% of the way to perfect, but you have to love it to keep it, because if your boggo repmobile behaved the same way mechanically, it'd be to total derision in the national motoring press.
Eh? The Elise is a very simple car that very little goes wrong with, or at least no more so than any car of its age. Don't forget most hatches and repmobiles of this vintage are sitting on a scrapheap already, because of their 'foibles' etc. They also cost a hell of a lot less to sort out than german equivalents etc too - someone with a 911 was telling me they use mild steel exhaust hangers and then have the cheek to charge several hundred pounds for new ones! But few people would approach a Porsche thinking the ownership experience will be as ugly as a Lotus.I just find it makes me a little sad inside that something is 95% of the way to perfect, but you have to love it to keep it, because if your boggo repmobile behaved the same way mechanically, it'd be to total derision in the national motoring press.
In 10 years of S1 ownership I have had an AP racing clutch cylinder fail and the window mechanism jammed and a koni shock wear out. But the servicing, done once a year at a specialist has been decidedly average in cost. Seriously, if you are thinking about it, just do it, costs are very low compared with other performance cars.
Its a few hours since I read the article, but isn't he just saying he needed to buy a new heater fan? Hardly a crippling sentence of unreliability surely?
I think you need to bear in mind that an S1 is now probably 15 years old. It's also a hand-built British sports car and probably one which has seen hard use and track days. If you accept that reality, they're absolutely mega.
My S1 is an Exige and it's had its fair share of problems. I don't really care though as I get something which is dynamically on a different planet to just about anything else I can afford. I feel like I'm strapping myself in an LMP1 car every time I take it for a drive. It burbles and shouts and spits flames and sometimes it breaks down, but so be it. My company car is there to get me to work.
In terms of wet track use, I can only comment based on a day at Hethel in one of Lotus's own S2 Elises. It was teeming with rain, standing water everywhere and generally fairly horrid. In spite of this we drove very briskly indeed; to the extent where we were getting tyre squeal through fast corners. I was staggered. There was a moment when I came in and out of the throttle too quickly which gave rise to understeer then oversteer. Even being the world's most inept driver I managed not to have an accident.
Out on the road is a different matter. I drive extremely cautiously and take no shame in saying so. Aquaplaning car be pronounced and you generally sit in the spray of other vehicles so I tend just to chill out and take it easy.
If you're unsure about whether an Elise, especially as S1, is for you then there's loads of good advice in this thread. I have adored both my Lotus cars and will probably retain my Exige indefinitely. My Elise 111R was - by an enormous margin - the cheapest car I've ever run as well. Lost £500 in depreciation over two years and 20,000 miles of use with only routine servicing and a set of rear tyres. Never missed a beat and just soaked up hard use. Brilliant, brilliant, little cars.
My S1 is an Exige and it's had its fair share of problems. I don't really care though as I get something which is dynamically on a different planet to just about anything else I can afford. I feel like I'm strapping myself in an LMP1 car every time I take it for a drive. It burbles and shouts and spits flames and sometimes it breaks down, but so be it. My company car is there to get me to work.
In terms of wet track use, I can only comment based on a day at Hethel in one of Lotus's own S2 Elises. It was teeming with rain, standing water everywhere and generally fairly horrid. In spite of this we drove very briskly indeed; to the extent where we were getting tyre squeal through fast corners. I was staggered. There was a moment when I came in and out of the throttle too quickly which gave rise to understeer then oversteer. Even being the world's most inept driver I managed not to have an accident.
Out on the road is a different matter. I drive extremely cautiously and take no shame in saying so. Aquaplaning car be pronounced and you generally sit in the spray of other vehicles so I tend just to chill out and take it easy.
If you're unsure about whether an Elise, especially as S1, is for you then there's loads of good advice in this thread. I have adored both my Lotus cars and will probably retain my Exige indefinitely. My Elise 111R was - by an enormous margin - the cheapest car I've ever run as well. Lost £500 in depreciation over two years and 20,000 miles of use with only routine servicing and a set of rear tyres. Never missed a beat and just soaked up hard use. Brilliant, brilliant, little cars.
FTW said:
Following this blog has convinced me to put my Boxster S on the market and look for an Elise replacement. I'm clearly a sucker for punishment.
good man. sign up to SELOC and receive a warm welcome and lots of (sometimes) useful advice.I'm getting some Porc soon, but this is to complement the Elise not replace.
Hoddo said:
tax is low compared to large capacity alternatives,
The S2 111S is the lowest tax of all the Elise other than the 1.6. Mine was £175 last year.http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Emissions_and_Road_Tax
RobM77 said:
That's the S2. The S1 I've not driven in the wet, but a friend of mine has one and has even taken it to drift events - he adores it. He did attend one of the track days I mentioned above when it was pouring with rain, and yes, a poor choice of tyre meant he didn't enjoy it much, but with the right tyres on the car he says it's absolutely fine in the wet due to how much the car tells you all the time.
One thing I will add before I finish is that the Elise has very specific geo changes with suspension deflection that are designed to make the car handle well and in a benign way. Owners modifying the suspension can interfere with this and cause wayward handling. As said above, much of the Elise's reputation has come from owner's messing with the suspension and also running worn tyres or fitting inappropriate tyres.
ETA: Despite all of the above, the Elise is a fairly short wheelbase rear engined car, so yes, it's never going to slide like an MX5 or a 3 series. Once the rear end is out a certain distance in all Elise derivatives, things do get nasty quite quickly, whereas this wouldn't happen in most front engined cars. However, you do of course get the benefits of the cars layout in its incredibly quick responses and agility. FE/RWD vs ME/RWD is always a choice in that respect. It's the same thing when comparing the MR2 to the MX5.
I they 'fixed' the problem with the S2 with more understeer but I'm sure Chris Harris said the S1 Elise is tricky at the limit and has a lot of snap/lift off oversteer just like an old 911. I don't understand how the geo is that great as everything I've read says the opposite but maybe they changed the geo on the S2 as well to make it safer. The S1 people say it's setup like an original S2000/MR2 Mk2 into the turn and will snap oversteer if you lift near the front tyres limit or brake a little into tightening bends. I'm sure it's good if you know what you're doing and I remember Tiff Needell said the Mr2 wasn't that bad and he liked the lift off oversteer as it helped to turn the car when used properly.One thing I will add before I finish is that the Elise has very specific geo changes with suspension deflection that are designed to make the car handle well and in a benign way. Owners modifying the suspension can interfere with this and cause wayward handling. As said above, much of the Elise's reputation has come from owner's messing with the suspension and also running worn tyres or fitting inappropriate tyres.
ETA: Despite all of the above, the Elise is a fairly short wheelbase rear engined car, so yes, it's never going to slide like an MX5 or a 3 series. Once the rear end is out a certain distance in all Elise derivatives, things do get nasty quite quickly, whereas this wouldn't happen in most front engined cars. However, you do of course get the benefits of the cars layout in its incredibly quick responses and agility. FE/RWD vs ME/RWD is always a choice in that respect. It's the same thing when comparing the MR2 to the MX5.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 22 January 15:17
SidewaysSi said:
Good move! Of course, the next question is which Elise...
I'm torn between an early and cheap S1, and tinker with it to bring it up to parr or go for a 135/160 and keep it mint. Robert Elise said:
good man. sign up to SELOC and receive a warm welcome and lots of (sometimes) useful advice.
I'm getting some Porc soon, but this is to complement the Elise not replace.
I'm doing lots of research on Seloc at the moment, 150bhp, susp refresh and it looks like you can have a cheap fun toy! Dangerous forum is dangerous. I'm getting some Porc soon, but this is to complement the Elise not replace.
I love my Porka but with a company car something more focused is viable, elise fits the bill lovely especially with its strong residuals
Edited by FTW on Wednesday 22 January 21:02
Good write up again, there's nothing quite like an Elise...
Similar watery event happened to me the other morning, though not nearly as wet. went through a huge puddle, with spray up both sides of the car and over the front... and the interior immediately steamed up! annoyingly, it'd had just got clear-ish. this mini-lake was on a corner, so didnt see it till too late, and didnt fancy any sudden manoeuvre or braking to avert it - you know how that would have ended!
so i spent the day convinced i would be calling the breakdown folks, but it started fine, had a good long drying out run home, and 7 days later it's still running like a dream.
it's the perfect everyday car, but mine is an S2, so i'm a wimp!
Similar watery event happened to me the other morning, though not nearly as wet. went through a huge puddle, with spray up both sides of the car and over the front... and the interior immediately steamed up! annoyingly, it'd had just got clear-ish. this mini-lake was on a corner, so didnt see it till too late, and didnt fancy any sudden manoeuvre or braking to avert it - you know how that would have ended!
so i spent the day convinced i would be calling the breakdown folks, but it started fine, had a good long drying out run home, and 7 days later it's still running like a dream.
it's the perfect everyday car, but mine is an S2, so i'm a wimp!
Iirc The S1 with the rover engine was only "allowed it" if it ran with the same drive shaft angles as in the fwd Rovers, this lead to a higher than preferred engine height and location which adds to the roll oversteer. Forgive me if I don't have the facts 100% correct or if this is old news. If this is true why is there not an engine lowering kit or does the resulting design simply not allow it?
Caddyshack said:
Iirc The S1 with the rover engine was only "allowed it" if it ran with the same drive shaft angles as in the fwd Rovers, this lead to a higher than preferred engine height and location which adds to the roll oversteer. Forgive me if I don't have the facts 100% correct or if this is old news. If this is true why is there not an engine lowering kit or does the resulting design simply not allow it?
It's a well known problem compared to other true mid engined cars with bespoke engines like the Cayman for instance. I'm told that my 2-Eleven handles nowhere near as well as a Lola or Chevron for this reason 
The thing with Lotus though is the magic they can work with inferior underpinnings - the engine is also far too far back, in fact there's a greater percentage of weight on the rear axle of an Elise than a 911! The Elise has a lower polar moment of intertia though, which is why they handle differently. Back to Lotus though, they're just so good at setting cars up that in my opinion, and that of many others, the Evora drives much better than the Cayman, despite the Cayman having the on-paper advantage with its ludicrously low CofG and true mid mounted engine (albeit not the stiff tub chassis - how ironic is it that people criticise Lotus over Porsche for having plastic bodies on their cars?!) . We can only imagine what Lotus could do these days with a bespoke engine and a chassis designed around it and Matt Becker signing off the chassis.FTW said:
SidewaysSi said:
Good move! Of course, the next question is which Elise...
I'm torn between an early and cheap S1, and tinker with it to bring it up to parr or go for a 135/160 and keep it mint. Robert Elise said:
good man. sign up to SELOC and receive a warm welcome and lots of (sometimes) useful advice.
I'm getting some Porc soon, but this is to complement the Elise not replace.
I'm doing lots of research on Seloc at the moment, 150bhp, susp refresh and it looks like you can have a cheap fun toy! Dangerous forum is dangerous. I'm getting some Porc soon, but this is to complement the Elise not replace.
I love my Porka but with a company car something more focused is viable, elise fits the bill lovely especially with its strong residuals
Edited by FTW on Wednesday 22 January 21:02
I still need to make a few changes to my car to make it perfect but I do like growing with it and making it mine...
Miss my series 1 Elise
I had a one of fifty special edition ... That meant it had gold wheels and green body ...but it was still numbered 1 out of fifty ..
Funny .
But the thing I hated the most in the wet , the water was blasted straight up the bonnet and onto the window ...and wipers were not quite as good as I would of liked ...
Apart from that it was one of the greatest cars I've owned ....miss it
I had a one of fifty special edition ... That meant it had gold wheels and green body ...but it was still numbered 1 out of fifty ..
Funny .
But the thing I hated the most in the wet , the water was blasted straight up the bonnet and onto the window ...and wipers were not quite as good as I would of liked ...
Apart from that it was one of the greatest cars I've owned ....miss it
Oh , and the video with the Elise crashing in the forum above
I am sure the driver locked the wheels up as he came over the crest ...and kept the brakes full on all the way down .
I would say it was first time at course and in the wet ... Loss of nerve and foot full on brake in the wet
Easy to do ...and hard to save once slide starts
But I'm sure if he kept going rather then braking the Elise would of kept the line fine .
I am sure the driver locked the wheels up as he came over the crest ...and kept the brakes full on all the way down .
I would say it was first time at course and in the wet ... Loss of nerve and foot full on brake in the wet
Easy to do ...and hard to save once slide starts
But I'm sure if he kept going rather then braking the Elise would of kept the line fine .
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