RE: Alfa Romeo 4C vs Lotus Exige
Discussion
Jacobyte said:
Beyond the increased interior space and packaging, it provides a lower relative centre of gravity, so will allow for less roll for the same springs/dampers and faster cornering.
What Jacobyte said!Little analagy...
Stand with your feet together..get someone to push you sideways
the stand with your feet wider than you shoulders apart..and squat a bit...and get someone to push you sideways..
think you will see the difference.. Low and wide = Stable.... Length is better for straight line speed.. thats why drag cars, land speed record cars are all long and thin.
I'd buy the Alfa over the Porsche or Lotus, no question. This goes beyond quantitative analysis and into the dark recesses of emotive choice.
What is interesting to note is that the UK car that's getting a lot of criticism has the optional race suspension and inch larger wheels all round. I'd like to read a test of a completely standard 4C for comparison.
What is interesting to note is that the UK car that's getting a lot of criticism has the optional race suspension and inch larger wheels all round. I'd like to read a test of a completely standard 4C for comparison.
Edited by Ali_T on Thursday 20th March 11:15
A front engined RWD car (or 4WD car) needs a certain width to accomodate the transmission tunnel which will often have structural role.
Not an issue here of course for the Alfa but although the Elise chassis appears to do away with any central structure, it is interesting to see below that the 12C tub appears to have one, albeit less massive than the 4C's pseudo transmission tunnel/central structure. Presumably the 12C tub has more strength overall but the bulk of it will be coming from the side rails/'sill' structures.
4C tub
12C tub
How things have moved on from the otherwise elegant Esprit chassis! Side imact protection - Qué¿
I also liked what McLaren acheived with the 12C/P1 interms of mounting the IRIS screen vertically to help slim the centre console and the end result is that the driver and passenger sit relatively close together (shoulders almost touching) with clear benefits for the centre of mass and visibility. Compare and contrast with with the 599 GTB wideboy!
Not an issue here of course for the Alfa but although the Elise chassis appears to do away with any central structure, it is interesting to see below that the 12C tub appears to have one, albeit less massive than the 4C's pseudo transmission tunnel/central structure. Presumably the 12C tub has more strength overall but the bulk of it will be coming from the side rails/'sill' structures.
4C tub
12C tub
How things have moved on from the otherwise elegant Esprit chassis! Side imact protection - Qué¿
I also liked what McLaren acheived with the 12C/P1 interms of mounting the IRIS screen vertically to help slim the centre console and the end result is that the driver and passenger sit relatively close together (shoulders almost touching) with clear benefits for the centre of mass and visibility. Compare and contrast with with the 599 GTB wideboy!
Edited by MogulBoy on Thursday 20th March 11:38
Craikeybaby said:
I think it is great that Alfa haven't just tried to make another Porsche/Lotus and have done their own thing.
Im not quite sure what you mean, the 4c is hardly revolutionary and different is it?It's a beautiful looking car (bar the headlights) but it seems to have a few flaws egthe interior looks horrific when you look at the interiors Alfa has produced before.
Dan Trent said:
Another point worth bearing in mind that the Lotus as tested here represents over a decade of development on that platform whereas the 4C is barely out of the blocks. Be interesting to see how the 4C evolves...
True but the handling hasn't developed much. Lotus got it spot on straight from the word GO!Edited by Dan Trent on Thursday 20th March 09:56
Shame about the 4C. It is lovely but it looks like an Evora/Cayman rival but has the hardcore feel of an Elise/Exige. It needs to be one or the other. Its hard not to like it though.
I really struggle with the whole raison d'etre of the 4C. Alfa needed a car to help relaunch the brand ( again... ). The world wanted a viable alternative to a Boxster/Cayman - it didn't have to be that radical, just something with a bit more Latin flair. There are enough people out there who would buy something just to be different from the Porshe crowd, as long as it didn't involve to many sacrfices. The 4C looks ( I believe, not having seen one in the flesh ) great, but instead of developing a car that was an alternative to the Porsches, and selling bucket loads of things & transforming Alfa, they have developed what is, in effect, an alternative to a Lotus Elise/Exige, a car which already sells in minimal amounts.
It will appeal to a very small, wealthy, hardcore following, who can afford to run it as a second or third weekend car, but it seems Alfa have ( yet again ) totally missed the opportunity and have succeeded in launching a car which answers a question nobody asked.
Why oh why do the keep on doing this ! ( and yes, I used to own an Alfa Sud and loved it )
It will appeal to a very small, wealthy, hardcore following, who can afford to run it as a second or third weekend car, but it seems Alfa have ( yet again ) totally missed the opportunity and have succeeded in launching a car which answers a question nobody asked.
Why oh why do the keep on doing this ! ( and yes, I used to own an Alfa Sud and loved it )
[quote=Bigchiefmuffin] but it seems Alfa have ( yet again ) totally missed the opportunity and have succeeded in launching a car which answers a question nobody asked.
In many ways, like the 8C, this is a stop gap to get people talking about Alfa again until the Giulia and Spider arrive. That's where the real sales push will be.
In many ways, like the 8C, this is a stop gap to get people talking about Alfa again until the Giulia and Spider arrive. That's where the real sales push will be.
Jacobyte said:
A couple of observations:
In one breath you make excuses for the Exige "...that’s OK because if you’ve committed to that you’ll be primed and ready with the necessary inputs".
The same can be said for the Alfa, so why berate the 4C with without the same qualification?
In another breath you say of the Alfa "...neutrality edges into mild oversteer but the on-off power delivery means it’s devilishly hard to pinpoint and even trickier to exploit".
Is that really a bad thing? That's one aspect which might entice me more into wanting one. Too many cars are easy to drive (c.f. progressions of the 911 GT3) and that takes away the personal satisfcation of the process of deeply understanding the car.
I love the Elise/Exige, having driven many on and off track. I'd love to try a 4C myself rather than take this article as gospel, as it seems rather weighted with understandable but unnecessary bias.
OK, let me qualify. In one breath you make excuses for the Exige "...that’s OK because if you’ve committed to that you’ll be primed and ready with the necessary inputs".
The same can be said for the Alfa, so why berate the 4C with without the same qualification?
In another breath you say of the Alfa "...neutrality edges into mild oversteer but the on-off power delivery means it’s devilishly hard to pinpoint and even trickier to exploit".
Is that really a bad thing? That's one aspect which might entice me more into wanting one. Too many cars are easy to drive (c.f. progressions of the 911 GT3) and that takes away the personal satisfcation of the process of deeply understanding the car.
I love the Elise/Exige, having driven many on and off track. I'd love to try a 4C myself rather than take this article as gospel, as it seems rather weighted with understandable but unnecessary bias.
You're exiting a corner in the Exige, you're winding lock off and feeding power in. You've got a usable power band that goes from, say, 3K to 8K and the power comes on in a linear fashion building up incrementally to that banzai top end. If you've got greedy you've got time as that power comes in to adjust your inputs accordingly and the window for doing so is wide and exploitable. And fun.
In the 4C it's the other way around. The power comes in suddenly with a huge spike of boost and then tails off, meaning more often than not your dealing with an unsettled car with limited options. If it's pushing on you can lift but there's a snappiness too it that you need to look out for. And if it's snapped into oversteer you've got a very narrow powerband in which to decide what to do because if you're fully committed and running out of revs the options aren't very attractive.
It does depend what you like of course but to my mind an unsettled car with a narrow powerband is not as enjoyable or exploitable as a more benign one with a broader, more linear one. The Lotus enables you to be more proactive about how you choose to take a corner, balance the power against weight distribution and the rest while in the 4C you always seemed to be reactive and correcting based on muddied communication and an inherently more spiky engine geared for 'exciting' feeling acceleration rather than as part of a harmonious package. The Alfa does feel more punchy but to me that comes at the detriment of balance and progression. Your passengers will probably be more impressed with the whoosh bang sensation the Alfa gives but as a driver's tool the Exige has a much broader operating window.
Sorry, I've prattled on but I think it's an important distinction.
Cheers,
Dan
I wonder if it will be feasible for someone to offer a remap of the Alfa which pushes the torque and power further up the rev range so that the power/torque curves look closer to a (large) NA engine?
Scuffers?
Not sure how much that stuff is governed by ECU mapping these days or whether you would have to be looking at a different turbo and cams.
I imagine the current curves resemble an old American V8's (lots of low-down grunt and little top end) when we want them to look more like the old 3.2 Busso V6 in the GTAs.
Scuffers?
Not sure how much that stuff is governed by ECU mapping these days or whether you would have to be looking at a different turbo and cams.
I imagine the current curves resemble an old American V8's (lots of low-down grunt and little top end) when we want them to look more like the old 3.2 Busso V6 in the GTAs.
B10 said:
I ma surprised that there appears (correct me if I am wrong) that no main motoring mag have done a proper test between a new Lotus and the 4C. They wax lyrically about the 4C. To me it is almost a Lotus copy, yet this never mentioned. It is as Lotus has never existed or they would like it to cease.
Just a few days ago - http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/alfa-romeo-4c-por...B10 said:
I ma surprised that there appears (correct me if I am wrong) that no main motoring mag have done a proper test between a new Lotus and the 4C. They wax lyrically about the 4C. To me it is almost a Lotus copy, yet this never mentioned. It is as Lotus has never existed or they would like it to cease.
How can it not be similar , they are both small mid engine sports cars Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff