RE: Lotus Elise Sport 135: PH Fleet

[zebedee]

SpeedyDave said:

Doubtless Matt is a very skilled driver but I really don't get people fawning in response to that video. Just a few very straight forward 2nd gear skids, it hardly takes a virtuoso to do that.

with such casual inputs, in an Elise, it is certainly impressive. Post a vid of your efforts though by all means!

[SpeedyDave]

zebedee said:

with such casual inputs, in an Elise, it is certainly impressive.

It’s really not though.

2nd gear through a nice easy flat and level corner with a decent amount of space is something anyone half competent should be able to learn in a single afternoon on a wet airfield. It’s not like this is pitching sideways through a farm gate in 4th from 50 yards out, it’s about as basic as it gets.

Edited by SpeedyDave on Friday 28th March 10:22

[SpeedyDave]

zebedee said:

Post a vid of your efforts though by all means!

OK

http://youtu.be/sX64Ykz8xpg

[aww999]

SpeedyDave said:

zebedee said:

Post a vid of your efforts though by all means!

OK

http://youtu.be/sX64Ykz8xpg

Well that shut everyone up! Awesome video, I can't believe no one else has commented yet!

[zebedee]

He is certainly braver than I am in mine in the wet, although I did actually get slightly sideways on that slight right kink (that is far more of a kink than you ever thought it was!) just before the old start/finish line at Silverstone, which is somewhere you really, really didn't want to go off (and it was before they moved the wall back). I also had one when accelerating to overtake and losing traction on the broken white line at about 60mph. I guess he has become accustomed to it, just like Becker, so they are both impressive and he is downplaying it. If I had one moment like that in the wet on the road I think I would be pulling over at the next pub to calm my nerves.

[Fantuzzi]

4a4 said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

You need to go in a well worn in 8v 944 with a Dansk exhaust! I honestly have never heard a 4 pot that sounds as good as mine on full chat between 3rd to 4th

As for Matt - yeah he is the don! It is not as easy as he makes it look haha.

His approval makes it worth it (and trust me - i know how little run off 'zero' means on that hairpin!)

Sadly unless you have some decent cash, the best 4 cylinders will allude you cmoose,

The Maserati 200si sounds insane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQSVdd1C71Y

As would one of the Alfa GTA engines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQhN44CI3QQ

And anything by Abarth in the 60s and 70s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuc9V_YA40Q

[zebedee]

Fantuzzi said:

Sadly unless you have some decent cash, the best 4 cylinders will allude you cmoose,

The Maserati 200si sounds insane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQSVdd1C71Y

As would one of the Alfa GTA engines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQhN44CI3QQ

And anything by Abarth in the 60s and 70s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuc9V_YA40Q

the noise of the maser would put a smile on your face every time you exercised it for sure

[SpeedyDave]

zebedee said:

I guess he has become accustomed to it... ...and he is downplaying it.

My point wasn't that all skids are easy & I wasn't trying to trivialize skids in general, some of the 'ring stuff is bloody dicey as its a minefield of grip changes, some near frictionless downhill corners etc. I wasn't trying to equate the two, just responding to an apparent call for 'credentials' with the only Elise skid vid I have handy.

What I am saying is the skids in the OP are trivial (fwiw I've driven Hethel in the wet too). The fallacy in this kind of thing seems to be;

1. Matt is a great driver (true)
2. Here is Matt doing some skids (true)
3. From 1 and 2, the skids must be amazing. (err, false).

I'm sure Matt can do some amazing stuff, just saying that wasn't it.

[zebedee]

He makes them look amazingly natural is perhaps the most concise way to sum it up. And I do think the people who would have the inate ability to do it that naturally in a car like the Elise, which is not reknown for its drifting credentials and is not a sensible car to 'provoke' are few and far between. Your skills in that regard are greater than mine, or at least those that I know of! Clearly I need to go play some more...

[otolith]

What Dave is doing looks much more inherently difficult, but Becker is so smooth and precise. There is stuff to admire in both videos, and both are far more than I can do (or I suspect most Elise owners). I can poke it with a stick and catch it again, but I know from time on skid pans in other cars that if I get over ambitious and try to sustain a drift, I end up spinning.

[zebedee]

Agreed, I think Dave can give himself a pat on the back (and a healthy adjustment of his cojones)

[zebedee]

and otolith, your s2 is, as I understand, less snappy than a 135s1 would be (although the geo changes might have helped). The s2 for example came with narrower front tyres so that an understeer tendency would be prevalent, the s1 was very much the opposite.

[otolith]

Not sure if the S2 is any easier to drift, just less likely to oversteer unexpectedly in the first place.

[zebedee]

I didn't say it was easier to drift, I said it was less snappy, so the fact that Becker is so measured and precise where Otolith has had issues provoking his car too far should be more notable, sorry if that was lost in what I typed.

[otolith]

zebedee said:

I didn't say it was easier to drift, I said it was less snappy, so the fact that Becker is so measured and precise where Otolith has had issues provoking his car too far should be more notable, sorry if that was lost in what I typed.

I can easily make mine slide and catch it again, that's not a problem. My experience of trying (and failing) to maintain big drifts on a skid pan is in other cars which should be easier than a short wheelbase M/R car like the Elise. I've not had the Elise on a skidpan yet and the knowledge of my own limitations in other cars prevents me trying to do prolonged skids in it on the road!

[otolith]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I'd say a snappy car is one that will oversteer suddenly and unexpectedly. In my experience, if you are progressive with the throttle inputs, unless on very low traction surfaces (ice, basically) an S2 Elise will not snap into oversteer under power. Maybe the supercharged cars will, but mine will either just grip and go or at worse spin up one wheel. Open diff. On the other hand, if you turn in, do a big lift and get back on the power, you'd better be expecting what it does next. So it can be provoked into oversteer with weight transfer, but it is unlikely to do it unless you are poking it with a stick. I understand the S1 cars are less benign under power. On the other hand, I've found that oversteer induced with just throttle is inherently easier to control than oversteer started with weight transfer.

[zebedee]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

"Somewhat" perchance, i.e. not absolutely.

I've explained what I meant in the context of Otolith's comment.

You said yourself that a propensity to understeer isn't going to make a car easier to drift, but I think most would agree that the s2 is less snappy than an s1.

I suppose it comes down to getting the tail out in the first place and what happens when it is there, those are the two primary dynamics but you'd have to investigate both.

[zebedee]

otolith said:

I'd say a snappy car is one that will oversteer suddenly and unexpectedly. In my experience, if you are progressive with the throttle inputs, unless on very low traction surfaces (ice, basically) an S2 Elise will not snap into oversteer under power. Maybe the supercharged cars will, but mine will either just grip and go or at worse spin up one wheel. Open diff. On the other hand, if you turn in, do a big lift and get back on the power, you'd better be expecting what it does next. So it can be provoked into oversteer with weight transfer, but it is unlikely to do it unless you are poking it with a stick. I understand the S1 cars are less benign under power. On the other hand, I've found that oversteer induced with just throttle is inherently easier to control than oversteer started with weight transfer.

Also Otolith, in an S1 when committed, if you do a big lift, it won't be getting back on the power that will bring the tail out, it will already be on its way! If in doubt, flat out can actually help in the s1 (officer)

[otolith]

An S2 will also start to oversteer when you lift, but you need to get back on the power to control the slide or else you are going off. It's at that point that you have the option to prolong it, and at which I chicken out and get it back in line ASAP

[otolith]

Lots of power or sod all rear grip! Front engine and rear drive are easier for that kind of thing.