RE: McLaren 650S: Review
Discussion
Dan Trent said:
the 650S is not the Speciale ("What, that slower car?" chuckles a mischievous Chris Goodwin) to the 458 Italia and no stripped out track wannabe.....It's a nominal 6kg lighter than a 12C, leaving the door open for a more minimalist version if the market demands. As it stands 1,330kg dry is 40kg more than a Speciale by the same measure but 50kg lighter than the 1,380kg quoted for the standard 458 Italia, the latter figure cheekily arrived at with optional forged wheels and fixed-back racing seats if you read the small print. Effectively then a 650S is a passenger lighter than a similarly equipped 458 but also has 489hp per tonne over the Speciale's 469hp per tonne, never mind 45hp and 102lb ft more."
Dan, it's quite clear that you're trying your utmost to prove, by numbers, that the McLaren is a better car the the 458 Italia/Speciale. It's amusing how you lean so heavily on reductionism when it's convenient. Notice the derisory "wannabe" tag, and then going at length to point out that the Ferrari's weight is achieved through options. As if this is somehow discrediting. Well, maybe in your biased eyes, yes. There's clearly a McLaren love-in here on Pistonheads, pretty much like Autocar with their Jaguar - Land Rover crush. It runs through all of your reporting. Funnily enough, it's Chris Harris who is the most balanced reviewer on this website.Cobnapint said:
Another proud to be British moment - superb......(apart from the stool-brown interior).
And I'm still not comfy with the left and right extremities of the back end either, but it wouldn't stop me having one over a Fiat 458.
Why are you proud to be British? Is that something you achieved? Did you, as a sperm or egg, have some say in the matter of getting your parents to bang in good ol' Britannia? I mean, someone may be grateful or happy to be born into or to have lived in a certain society. But to be proud? I'm pretty sure you had no input in the matter. Are you proud of McLaren? Did you happen to have a hand on the design, testing, production or some other phase of the creation of this product? Or are you just a brainwashed patriot who's proud because his parents got hot and sweaty in the same country as where this company was developed? Honest question. Think about it.And I'm still not comfy with the left and right extremities of the back end either, but it wouldn't stop me having one over a Fiat 458.
Also, what's with the rather petty "Fiat" snipe? Are you attempting to mock a car in order to make your beloved McLaren seem superior?
Do people honestly think McLaren should have continued with the 12C for another few years so as not to have upset previous buyers when they launched the 650S? Or that they should have upgraded 12C owners for free? They are a commercial organisation. People buying supercars must expect them to be superseded. The 12C may have had shortfalls from launch but this is to be expected with any new product to market. Early adopters always face a double-edged sword of having the latest and newest thing, but also picking up some launch glitches.
blasos said:
Why are you proud to be British? Is that something you achieved? Did you, as a sperm or egg, have some say in the matter of getting your parents to bang in good ol' Britannia? I mean, someone may be grateful or happy to be born into or to have lived in a certain society. But to be proud? I'm pretty sure you had no input in the matter. Are you proud of McLaren? Did you happen to have a hand on the design, testing, production or some other phase of the creation of this product? Or are you just a brainwashed patriot who's proud because his parents got hot and sweaty in the same country as where this company was developed? Honest question. Think about it.
I have to respond to this. I am proud to be British - fantastic car by the way, have been lucky enough to see a few around as I live just up the road from the McLaren factory.Back to the proud bit, I am proud that my daughter did well in her gymnastics classes, and that my son did well in his recent karate grading. Did I have a hand in that? Not really, but I did support them and that makes me proud of them and their achievements. Same about being British I suppose.
Also looking forward to the Chris Harris video and his opinions on the differences between this and the 12C.
The 650S reviews across all the mags/websites which all went live overnight have an air of predictability about them and a strong whiff of emperor's new clothes
I'm not doubting the professionalism or credibility of any of the journalists. But even if only subconsciously, the reviews seem influenced by recent experiences in the P1 (halo effect, 'getting' the McLaren philosophy, P1 style nose, etc), numbers on paper (power, acceleration, etc), hospitality from McLaren on this huge jaunt to launch the car and the fact that the changes are far more heavily influenced by journalists' reactions to the 12C than real world drivers' reactions, which will inevitably give them an ego boost along the lines of 'told you !'
Looking at McLaren driver forums, where owners have driven in their 12C to a local dealership for a test drive of the 650S, so it's a back to back comparison on real world roads, the updates seem somewhat more underwhelming to these drivers.
I'm not suggesting the 650S isn't an improvement on the 12C and perhaps a truly great car, but if one takes away the cosmetic changes and the new standard tyres, then takes into account the fact that these reviews appear to be based on track time only (no driving on the road), then the fact that none of the reviewers will have had a direct comparison to the 12C (or a 458) on this test drive and I'm sceptical how realistic these latest journalist reviews are which suddenly change from 'very fast but dull' for the 12C to 'one of the best cars on the planet' for the 650S.
Put bluntly, my guess (which I'm prepared to be laughed at for, bearing in mind I've not yet driven the 650S) is that the new car is an improvement but I'm sceptical that the actual base character of the car is substantially changed over the 12C. Why ? Because nobody complained that the 12C wasn't fast enough or incredibly capable yet much of the praise for the 650S (looking across all the latest reviews, not just PH) seems to revolve around these areas rather than 'character', which was the main area of criticism for the 12C
I'm not doubting the professionalism or credibility of any of the journalists. But even if only subconsciously, the reviews seem influenced by recent experiences in the P1 (halo effect, 'getting' the McLaren philosophy, P1 style nose, etc), numbers on paper (power, acceleration, etc), hospitality from McLaren on this huge jaunt to launch the car and the fact that the changes are far more heavily influenced by journalists' reactions to the 12C than real world drivers' reactions, which will inevitably give them an ego boost along the lines of 'told you !'
Looking at McLaren driver forums, where owners have driven in their 12C to a local dealership for a test drive of the 650S, so it's a back to back comparison on real world roads, the updates seem somewhat more underwhelming to these drivers.
I'm not suggesting the 650S isn't an improvement on the 12C and perhaps a truly great car, but if one takes away the cosmetic changes and the new standard tyres, then takes into account the fact that these reviews appear to be based on track time only (no driving on the road), then the fact that none of the reviewers will have had a direct comparison to the 12C (or a 458) on this test drive and I'm sceptical how realistic these latest journalist reviews are which suddenly change from 'very fast but dull' for the 12C to 'one of the best cars on the planet' for the 650S.
Put bluntly, my guess (which I'm prepared to be laughed at for, bearing in mind I've not yet driven the 650S) is that the new car is an improvement but I'm sceptical that the actual base character of the car is substantially changed over the 12C. Why ? Because nobody complained that the 12C wasn't fast enough or incredibly capable yet much of the praise for the 650S (looking across all the latest reviews, not just PH) seems to revolve around these areas rather than 'character', which was the main area of criticism for the 12C
Conversely, you might argue that 12C owners, who have invested in the 12C and who wish the value of their investment to remain as high as possible, who perhaps have injured pride in that McLaren have released an update so soon and their product is now 'last generation', have a far more vested interest in damping down the 650 than Journos do of hyping it up.
blasos said:
Why are you proud to be British? Is that something you achieved? Did you, as a sperm or egg, have some say in the matter of getting your parents to bang in good ol' Britannia? I mean, someone may be grateful or happy to be born into or to have lived in a certain society. But to be proud? I'm pretty sure you had no input in the matter. Are you proud of McLaren? Did you happen to have a hand on the design, testing, production or some other phase of the creation of this product? Or are you just a brainwashed patriot who's proud because his parents got hot and sweaty in the same country as where this company was developed? Honest question. Think about it.
Deary me. blasos said:
Dan Trent said:
the 650S is not the Speciale ("What, that slower car?" chuckles a mischievous Chris Goodwin) to the 458 Italia and no stripped out track wannabe.....It's a nominal 6kg lighter than a 12C, leaving the door open for a more minimalist version if the market demands. As it stands 1,330kg dry is 40kg more than a Speciale by the same measure but 50kg lighter than the 1,380kg quoted for the standard 458 Italia, the latter figure cheekily arrived at with optional forged wheels and fixed-back racing seats if you read the small print. Effectively then a 650S is a passenger lighter than a similarly equipped 458 but also has 489hp per tonne over the Speciale's 469hp per tonne, never mind 45hp and 102lb ft more."
Dan, it's quite clear that you're trying your utmost to prove, by numbers, that the McLaren is a better car the the 458 Italia/Speciale. It's amusing how you lean so heavily on reductionism when it's convenient. Notice the derisory "wannabe" tag, and then going at length to point out that the Ferrari's weight is achieved through options. As if this is somehow discrediting. Well, maybe in your biased eyes, yes. There's clearly a McLaren love-in here on Pistonheads, pretty much like Autocar with their Jaguar - Land Rover crush. It runs through all of your reporting. Funnily enough, it's Chris Harris who is the most balanced reviewer on this website.For the record though I called Ferrari out on the weight for the standard 458 because I think it's a bit naughty publishing a kerb weight for a car that the small print then reveals is only achieved with a couple of significant weight saving/expensive optional extras. I'll find out some numbers but fixed seats and forged wheels have got to be worth c. 20kg.
And before you accuse me of UKIP style blinkered nationalism I did the same when Lotus claimed a 24kg weight saving for the Elise Club Racer, 12kg of which it turned out you'd only get if you ticked boxes/paid extra for a number of options. See here and below.
PH Elise article said:
There's a little playing about with the numbers here, Lotus saying there is a 'maximum' 20kg weight saving over the standard S's 924kg before qualifying that by saying "real enthusiasts can even manage to reduce the weight of the Elise S Club Racer a further 8kg by specifying track-use, dealer-fit options." These include a different exhaust and airbox but reading between the lines of the spec for the standard Club Racer on the Lotus website it says the headline 24kg saving "includes all weight reductions", the implication being that only 12kg of that weight saving comes as 'standard'.
They weren't especially chuffed at that. Cheers,
Dan
Edited by Dan Trent on Wednesday 2nd April 09:27
chelme said:
I love it how PH staff seem to have an issue with the Ferrari.
It'd be interesting to read a proper comparison of this and the Speciale. I wager the Italian would once again highlight the advantages of having good looks, character and fun built seamlessly into a very exciting supercar, over what looks like an incongruous unattractive styling exercise around a chassis which comes no where near to be be enjoyed unless flat out at a track.
Sadly, I can't see the 650S selling any more than the 12C and we should all now that the MP4 12C and later the 12C has probably not been profitable.
Did you read the review?It'd be interesting to read a proper comparison of this and the Speciale. I wager the Italian would once again highlight the advantages of having good looks, character and fun built seamlessly into a very exciting supercar, over what looks like an incongruous unattractive styling exercise around a chassis which comes no where near to be be enjoyed unless flat out at a track.
Sadly, I can't see the 650S selling any more than the 12C and we should all now that the MP4 12C and later the 12C has probably not been profitable.
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