RE: McLaren 650S: Review

[isaldiri]

jonby said:

The 650S reviews across all the mags/websites which all went live overnight have an air of predictability about them and a strong whiff of emperor's new clothes

I'm not doubting the professionalism or credibility of any of the journalists. But even if only subconsciously, the reviews seem influenced by recent experiences in the P1 (halo effect, 'getting' the McLaren philosophy, P1 style nose, etc), numbers on paper (power, acceleration, etc), hospitality from McLaren on this huge jaunt to launch the car and the fact that the changes are far more heavily influenced by journalists' reactions to the 12C than real world drivers' reactions, which will inevitably give them an ego boost along the lines of 'told you !'

Looking at McLaren driver forums, where owners have driven in their 12C to a local dealership for a test drive of the 650S, so it's a back to back comparison on real world roads, the updates seem somewhat more underwhelming to these drivers.

I'm not suggesting the 650S isn't an improvement on the 12C and perhaps a truly great car, but if one takes away the cosmetic changes and the new standard tyres, then takes into account the fact that these reviews appear to be based on track time only (no driving on the road), then the fact that none of the reviewers will have had a direct comparison to the 12C (or a 458) on this test drive and I'm sceptical how realistic these latest journalist reviews are which suddenly change from 'very fast but dull' for the 12C to 'one of the best cars on the planet' for the 650S.

Put bluntly, my guess (which I'm prepared to be laughed at for, bearing in mind I've not yet driven the 650S) is that the new car is an improvement but I'm sceptical that the actual base character of the car is substantially changed over the 12C. Why ? Because nobody complained that the 12C wasn't fast enough or incredibly capable yet much of the praise for the 650S (looking across all the latest reviews, not just PH) seems to revolve around these areas rather than 'character', which was the main area of criticism for the 12C

Payback time perhaps for the 12C getting knocked in every earlier review against the 458 which IMHO wasn't entirely accurate.

Perhaps the comparison from owners is more down to wondering whether the new car is worth the 100k ish GBP to change up rather than a reflection of how good or otherwise the 650S is. There is no doubt I think the 650S will be the dynamically superior car. Whether it's worth the premium is quite another thing as the 12C isn't half bad a car either....

[jonby]

isaldiri said:

jonby said:

The 650S reviews across all the mags/websites ......

Payback time perhaps for the 12C getting knocked in every earlier review against the 458 which IMHO wasn't entirely accurate.

Perhaps the comparison from owners is more down to wondering whether the new car is worth the 100k ish GBP to change up rather than a reflection of how good or otherwise the 650S is. There is no doubt I think the 650S will be the dynamically superior car. Whether it's worth the premium is quite another thing as the 12C isn't half bad a car either....

I'm sure you're right that cost to change influences the owners.

Also, 12C seems to be even more reliant than most supercars on lengthy seat time in real world conditions to fully reflect on the car. As you say, with the passage of time, perhaps a reflection from journos on their initial approach to the 12C has influenced reviews on 650S

But I go back to the main issue - I can see how the car has been improved, perhaps even significantly. But I don't see how the fundamental character of the car, whether you love it or hate it, can be so dramatically changed in this instance

I remember a wonderful day where I got to spend reasonable amounts of back-to-back seat time, on track, in all 3 variants of the 997 GT3 RS. You could notice incremental improvements to the point we (i.e. my fellow drivers on the day) compared the abilities of all 3 cars in lengthy discussions. But in reality, if we were comparing any one of the models to a fundamentally different car, say a 430 scud, I'm not sure it would have made that much difference which variant of the 997 we were comparing it to.

If was an RS owner, I may well have paid each time to upgrade to the latest model and been very happy or alternatively, failed to justify the 'cost to change'. I'm sure an RS owner who has spent lots of real world ownership time in their car would be able to highlight improvements far better than I could. But that's a separate issue to whether the main characteristics of the car have been significantly changed, or simply improved. In the instance of 12C:650S, if it's improved rather than changed, the latest reviews seem somewhat flawed in their conclusions unless as you say, it's admission of 'mistakes' in the earlier reviews

[renaultgeek]

I'm just really surprised that seats costing over 5k over the price of the regular seats can exist! Seats costing 5k, I could understand, but I'm assuming a set of the standard seats costs about that.

[keiran]

kenno78 said:

6th Gear said:

dxbtiger said:

12C is a much better looking machine for me from the front than the 650S.

+1

+1

+1

[British Beef]

jason61c said:

jimmy156 said:

Really? The 12c was a pretty fantastic car, heralded by many reviews as superior to its rivals but 'lacking soul.'

I cannot see how McLaren screws up with the 12c, apart from some initial teething problems which by all accounts were dealt with extremely well. Can you see ferrari issuing free updates to existing owners that add power(?) and improve the car significantly?

Some cars were nearly a year getting sorted, even then not everything worked properly.

Basically they let the customers finish testing on the cars.

Mainly software glitches from what I heard. Could be much worse...... for instance, minor teething problems with (991 GT3) engine combustion.

[LuS1fer]

Still not a great fan of the design and the back end is still awful.
Can't really argue with the way it goes though.

[jonby]

renaultgeek said:

I'm just really surprised that seats costing over 5k over the price of the regular seats can exist! Seats costing 5k, I could understand, but I'm assuming a set of the standard seats costs about that.

They are expensive but for example, CF lightweight seats in an Aston are a £3k option when specified new, however over £10k if bought 'standalone'. Ferrari & Porsche is a similar story

Doesn't mean it's not outrageous of course but options on all the cars in this segment have gone that way unfortunately - it's a great money spinner for them - have you seen the total cost of typical options on Ferraris these days ? Some of the options on my Aston specced 15 months ago had risen by 100s of % compared to the identical options specced on my previous Aston 2 yrs earlier.

[Roma101]

Glad that I'm not the only one who can't get on with the front styling of the 650s. I would go so far as to say it is pretty ugly. Much prefer the 12C front. If the 650s had the 12C front, then, as a package, it would be perfect. However, as I am not a potential customer, my opinion won't matter to Big Ron!

[British Beef]

blasos said:

Why are you proud to be British? Is that something you achieved? Did you, as a sperm or egg, have some say in the matter of getting your parents to bang in good ol' Britannia? I mean, someone may be grateful or happy to be born into or to have lived in a certain society. But to be proud? I'm pretty sure you had no input in the matter. Are you proud of McLaren? Did you happen to have a hand on the design, testing, production or some other phase of the creation of this product? Or are you just a brainwashed patriot who's proud because his parents got hot and sweaty in the same country as where this company was developed? Honest question. Think about it.

Also, what's with the rather petty "Fiat" snipe? Are you attempting to mock a car in order to make your beloved McLaren seem superior?

Mr Blasos, is it that time of the month? Wipe your eyes and ask your mum for a cuddle.

Having some pride in products (cars in this forum) from your own country is a good thing! The Germans, Italians and Americans are rightly proud of theirs, (it is probably the only reason the French car industry still exists) and we have every right to be proud of ours!!

[rodericb]

I'm sure they're both lovely cars to drive. But whoah, talk about a face only its mother could love!

Are McLaren so hard up for a buck that they couldn't afford to give the back end of it a bit of a refresh too?

[isaldiri]

jonby said:

But I go back to the main issue - I can see how the car has been improved, perhaps even significantly. But I don't see how the fundamental character of the car, whether you love it or hate it, can be so dramatically changed in this instance

I remember a wonderful day where I got to spend reasonable amounts of back-to-back seat time, on track, in all 3 variants of the 997 GT3 RS. You could notice incremental improvements to the point we (i.e. my fellow drivers on the day) compared the abilities of all 3 cars in lengthy discussions. But in reality, if we were comparing any one of the models to a fundamentally different car, say a 430 scud, I'm not sure it would have made that much difference which variant of the 997 we were comparing it to.

If was an RS owner, I may well have paid each time to upgrade to the latest model and been very happy or alternatively, failed to justify the 'cost to change'. I'm sure an RS owner who has spent lots of real world ownership time in their car would be able to highlight improvements far better than I could. But that's a separate issue to whether the main characteristics of the car have been significantly changed, or simply improved. In the instance of 12C:650S, if it's improved rather than changed, the latest reviews seem somewhat flawed in their conclusions unless as you say, it's admission of 'mistakes' in the earlier reviews

Interesting you say that. I thought the 7.2 RS was considerably different to the 7.1 RS, the 4.0 to the 7.2 was a lot closer so say comparing vs a scud, I do think it would matter it was the 7.1 or 7.2 RS.

Admittedly not having driven a 650S yet (I have asked a dealer for a quick go in the demo when they are done with actual customers if possible) but from what I understand, the new brake steer calibration similar to the P1 is going to change the car a fair bit. Basically for me the rear of the 12C can feel a bit unnatural when cornering hard on track and I was never sure if that was a factor of lacking the diff or the hydraulic suspension doing it's thing to keep the car level. Per CH review Mclaren have worked at dialling that out of the P1 (and succeeded very well it seems) and that has streamed down to the 650S as well (it's something I know for sure a fair number of owners have raised about the 12C to the factory so it is a bit annoying to me that it seems this will not be an update offered to be applied to the older cars but anyway...).

This however is behaviour that likely will only be evident on track as one probably shouldn't be at grip limit on the public road..... On the road I agree the intrinsic character of the 12C and 650S are going to be very close and if one didn't like the 12C on the road the 650S is unlikely to do anything for that person either.

[storminnorman]

jonby said:

The 650S reviews across all the mags/websites which all went live overnight have an air of predictability about them and a strong whiff of emperor's new clothes

I'm not doubting the professionalism or credibility of any of the journalists. But even if only subconsciously, the reviews seem influenced by recent experiences in the P1 (halo effect, 'getting' the McLaren philosophy, P1 style nose, etc), numbers on paper (power, acceleration, etc), hospitality from McLaren on this huge jaunt to launch the car and the fact that the changes are far more heavily influenced by journalists' reactions to the 12C than real world drivers' reactions, which will inevitably give them an ego boost along the lines of 'told you !'

Looking at McLaren driver forums, where owners have driven in their 12C to a local dealership for a test drive of the 650S, so it's a back to back comparison on real world roads, the updates seem somewhat more underwhelming to these drivers.

This is a much more valid criticism of the reviewing industry than just chucking around cries of jingoism or accusing journalists of filling their pockets with porsche money, etc.
The key here is 'real world' and 'comparison'. The former seems to turn up a few months down the line when the manufacturers allow extended loans, but by that time the hype is gone. The latter, in my view, turns up even later and is limited in nature. These are dream cars in my case, but I still want to read how the 458 compares to the 348, a 996 and a 991, you get the idea.
Perhaps the problem is that public-facing journalists are too limited by the manufacturer's terms - which makes EVO's Secret Supercar Owner a shrewd idea.

[Hoonfest]

keiran said:

kenno78 said:

6th Gear said:

dxbtiger said:

12C is a much better looking machine for me from the front than the 650S.

+1

+1

+1

-1

[will261058]

Both fantastic but this latest one just looks that bit special to me. Nice one McLaren!

[jonby]

isaldiri said:

Interesting you say that. I thought the 7.2 RS was considerably different to the 7.1 RS, the 4.0 to the 7.2 was a lot closer so say comparing vs a scud, I do think it would matter it was the 7.1 or 7.2 RS.

I agree there was more of a difference between 7.1 & 7.2 than 7.2 & 4.0. The 7.1 felt 'looser/woollier' in direct comparison to 7.2 whereas differences between 7.2 & 4.0 were less noticeable. I certainly felt the difference between 7.2 and 4.0 was too slim to justify the premium, though that's not taking into account the potential depreciation/appreciation of each car. But with apologies for the broken record, I still felt 7.1 to 7.2 was more of an improvement than a fundamental character change. The reason I keep harping on about this aspect is that journo criticisms of the 12C were almost entirely based on character, not ability or performance

[Fire99]

I may be in somewhat of a minority on this thread but I've yet to get excited by either the 12C nor 650S. That said, the F1 didn't really grow on me either from a visual perspective so maybe it's not a surprise.

The 650S still has an air of computer influence greater than human influence about it.

[jonby]

storminnorman said:

This is a much more valid criticism of the reviewing industry than just chucking around cries of jingoism or accusing journalists of filling their pockets with porsche money, etc.
The key here is 'real world' and 'comparison'. The former seems to turn up a few months down the line when the manufacturers allow extended loans, but by that time the hype is gone. The latter, in my view, turns up even later and is limited in nature. These are dream cars in my case, but I still want to read how the 458 compares to the 348, a 996 and a 991, you get the idea.
Perhaps the problem is that public-facing journalists are too limited by the manufacturer's terms - which makes EVO's Secret Supercar Owner a shrewd idea.

Here's a question on that theme I'm genuinely interested in. I drive a high performance second car (it's a whole other debate whether V12 Vantage is a sportscar or a supercar !!!) and drive it pretty hard, from multi day Alpine road trips to track days. I drive it pretty much as fast as I can, where road circumstances allow. I often do this with fellow owners of similar types of cars. Never once do we talk about trying to drift the cars. I have a friend who traded in his 12C for a CGT, to sit alongside his F40, because he found the 12C too boring to drive despite being faster than both but again, he never talked about drifting and he is an amateur racing driver.

But there seems to be a trend in reviews over the last few years to talk about the ability of cars to drift, to the extent it impacts on the overall rating given by the journo to the car. How many potential owners in the real world use drifting capabilities as an influencing factor when choosing their car ? I'm really not sure whether I'm in a minority in finding this aspect almost irrelevant but would be fascinated to find out

Right I'll stop posting now, time to work !

[storminnorman]

jonby said:

Here's a question on that theme I'm genuinely interested in. I drive a high performance second car (it's a whole other debate whether V12 Vantage is a sportscar or a supercar !!!) and drive it pretty hard, from multi day Alpine road trips to track days. I drive it pretty much as fast as I can, where road circumstances allow. I often do this with fellow owners of similar types of cars. Never once do we talk about trying to drift the cars. I have a friend who traded in his 12C for a CGT, to sit alongside his F40, because he found the 12C too boring to drive despite being faster than both but again, he never talked about drifting and he is an amateur racing driver.

But there seems to be a trend in reviews over the last few years to talk about the ability of cars to drift, to the extent it impacts on the overall rating given by the journo to the car. How many potential owners in the real world use drifting capabilities as an influencing factor when choosing their car ? I'm really not sure whether I'm in a minority in finding this aspect almost irrelevant but would be fascinated to find out

Right I'll stop posting now, time to work !

I think it's a mix of preference and trend. Certainly, as drift culture has become more mainstream and the whole 'can it drift' concept becomes popular, to some extent journos are following that trend to appeal to the userbase.
This is also borne out of a preference that some people see losing traction equalling fun - I just don't see it as fun, sure, we like a little twitch now and then but deliberately and consistently losing traction is surely not driving, it's arsing about.
Driving is, as you say, being on the limit as much as you can be, working on the limit of the car's capability and understanding the limit of the car's capability.
Again it comes down to real world, you're not buying a 650s or F40 to send it sideways around every roundabout (caterham owners need not apply)

[thatdude]

blasos said:

Why are you proud to be British? Is that something you achieved? Did you, as a sperm or egg, have some say in the matter of getting your parents to bang in good ol' Britannia? I mean, someone may be grateful or happy to be born into or to have lived in a certain society. But to be proud? I'm pretty sure you had no input in the matter. Are you proud of McLaren? Did you happen to have a hand on the design, testing, production or some other phase of the creation of this product? Or are you just a brainwashed patriot who's proud because his parents got hot and sweaty in the same country as where this company was developed? Honest question. Think about it.

Also, what's with the rather petty "Fiat" snipe? Are you attempting to mock a car in order to make your beloved McLaren seem superior?

Do you feel proud of Korea / to be a Korean?

[Dan Trent]

storminnorman said:

I think it's a mix of preference and trend. Certainly, as drift culture has become more mainstream and the whole 'can it drift' concept becomes popular, to some extent journos are following that trend to appeal to the userbase.
This is also borne out of a preference that some people see losing traction equalling fun - I just don't see it as fun, sure, we like a little twitch now and then but deliberately and consistently losing traction is surely not driving, it's arsing about.
Driving is, as you say, being on the limit as much as you can be, working on the limit of the car's capability and understanding the limit of the car's capability.
Again it comes down to real world, you're not buying a 650s or F40 to send it sideways around every roundabout (caterham owners need not apply)

As guilty as any in the business of being magnetically drawn to the drifting be-all end-all but from a media perspective what makes the more attractive vid: Harris doing a clean 'lap time' run in a 458/650S/GT3/etc or one where he immolates a set of tyres?

For what it's worth, my favourite moment - the one I'd bottle if I could - driving the 650S was coming out of that fast left-right at Ascari and the smooth blend from massive front end bite at apex through lovely neutrality to just a hint of oversteer on the exit as the turbos spooled up, followed by the redline 'inertia push' upshift. Just magic. Not showboating, just effing fast and absolutely thrilling. And it's that harmonisation and calibration of all the controls - brake, chassis, throttle, aero, etc - that really works beautifully in the 650S.

So, yes, sideways tyres/pants on fire makes for good vids and pics. But it's the more subtle stuff that really marks out a proper car in my book, which is why I tried to focus more on that and not get carried away doing skids. Not to belittle the latter, of course. Because I love doing that too!

Anyway, just my tuppence worth.

Cheers,

Dan