Transferrring/Retaining a number plate on sold car

[peza220]

Yes i taxed the car with the green slip online using the document number on the green slip.

[saaby93]

peza220 said:

I only sent the green slip off yesterday with next day delivery but when i look online the number plate is still on the car with the link you sent.

What did you send the green slip with?
It looks as though you may be worrying too much - but right to be concerned

[peza220]

I sent a v62 with the new keepers green slip to get the v5 log book.

[peza220]

Tbf it is quite worring because i have to use my car to travel to work, and without knowing whats going on with the plates i am wondering should i be using my car, is it insured and is the mot still valid. If i cant drive my car i have no other way to get to work to earn money.

[V8LM]

r11co said:

V8LM said:

Except that she would have needed to transfer the reg before change of keeper, otherwise the reg would be in the OP’s name, and then sent off the newly-issued V5C, which the OP hasn’t signed so she would have had to forge the signature?

No legal requirement for a signature from the new keeper. The process can even be carried out online by the seller.

Thanks. I notice that the DVLA's web site is horribly confused between owner and registered keeper; talks about sold, bought, owned, etc...

[saaby93]

peza220 said:

Tbf it is quite worring because i have to use my car to travel to work, and without knowing whats going on with the plates i am wondering should i be using my car, is it insured and is the mot still valid. If i cant drive my car i have no other way to get to work to earn money.

Youve checked the online details refer to the car
youve taxed it
youve insured it
what else is there to worry about?

[V8LM]

saaby93 said:

peza220 said:

Tbf it is quite worring because i have to use my car to travel to work, and without knowing whats going on with the plates i am wondering should i be using my car, is it insured and is the mot still valid. If i cant drive my car i have no other way to get to work to earn money.

Youve checked the online details refer to the car
youve taxed it
youve insured it
what else is there to worry about?

Driving a car with the incorrect registration plates on? At least you won't have to bother about speed cameras.

OP - do you have the V5C yet? What reg was on the car when you taxed it? What does the DVLA website say (Vehicle Check and MOT Check) for the car of registration in question?

If she had transferred the reg before informing the DVLA of change of keeper then the car would be on a different registration when you came to tax it. If she had tried to transfer the reg after she had informed the DVLA of change of keeper, then the V5C ref number would be different and she wouldn't have known it (plus the V5C would be in your name). I can't see how she has managed to get the reg.

Edited by V8LM on Thursday 4th January 10:59

[peza220]

When i taxed the car the private plate was on i have a conformation email and a direct debit withe the private plate on and my name when i look it up on the dvla it says my car with the private plate on but i do not have the v5c yet as i only sent off the green slip yeterday an it says it would take a week or two to come back.

[saaby93]

peza220 said:

When i taxed the car the private plate was on i have a conformation email and a direct debit withe the private plate on and my name when i look it up on the dvla it says my car with the private plate on but i do not have the v5c yet as i only sent off the green slip yeterday an it says it would take a week or two to come back.

I wouldnt worry about it - that's just the paper copy
You've checked everything on line and it all ties up - it's yours
If DVLA have accidentally told her shes managed to retain it thats her problem

[peza220]

I think she hasnt sent her side of the v5 off to the dvla with my signature on. And has applied for a new log book so she then could use to change the plates over and have another new log book with the old plates on and fill my details in and then they will send it me. But at this point i am just guessing at this point.

[saaby93]

peza220 said:

I think she hasnt sent her side of the v5 off to the dvla with my signature on. And has applied for a new log book so she then could use to change the plates over and have another new log book with the old plates on and fill my details in and then they will send it me. But at this point i am just guessing at this point.

Surely she'd have to forge your signature on the new V5C to do that
Did you exchange any other receipts?

The trouble with DVLA is they expect stuff to happen in the sequence it's written on the V5C but dont seem to have a written process if that doesnt happen, for instance if the seller doesnt send off the V5C with both your signatures

[r11co]

peza220 said:

I think she hasn't sent her side of the v5 off to the dvla with my signature on. And has applied for a new log book so she then could use to change the plates over...

Not required. If she hadn't sent the large part of the V5 off or transferred keepership on-line then there's no need for another one - retention could be done online using the V5 reference number. This would trigger another V5 being sent to her with the old reg. The fact that you taxed the car before or after that happening would be irrelevant.

Replacement V5 reference number would then be used to transfer keepership to you on-line, legally and above board with no signature required.

DVLA then sends updated V5 directly to you.

Your intervention with V5 counter-foil and V62 will make no difference except to affirm the keepership transfer and trigger another V5 coming out to you.

If the retention wasn't done first then it is game over and the plate is yours, If it was then the plate isn't yours and it never will be regardless of your protestations as it is the DVLA's job and discretion to assign it, but until the music stops (bearing mind there'll be a delay in processing all the paperwork you've been putting in) and you get a V5C directly from the DVLA you won't know.

saaby93 said:

Surely she'd have to forge your signature on the new V5C to do that?

See above - not legally required as keepership transfer can be carried out unilaterally by existing keeper online.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 4th January 11:28

[peza220]

I didnt get a writen reicept i writen it all on the v5 and thought this would be proof after we both signed it and all my details were on there. But it looks like she is not going to send that part to the dvla hoping she can take the plates off. I feel this is poor sportsmanship as she told me i could have the plates with the car and now she has the money for the car is trying to steal back what she has sold.

[V8LM]

As you have had to tax the car then the DVLA would have been informed that the registered keeper had been changed. She would have got a refund on any whole-months tax outstanding. You would then be the registered keeper. She wouldn't have been able to request a transfer because she wouldn't have the V5C reference number, as this would now be different.

It looks like she's trying it on hoping you'll agree to transfer to reg.

[saaby93]

There are two things to bear in mind
Although DVLA say you must transfer the plate before seliing to ensure you keep it
DVLA seem to have acccepted you can do it on the day if you fill in a V317 at the same time with the new keeper granting the plate back to the old keeper
and the seller sends off the V317 with the V5C

KungFuPanda said:

Fats25 is correct.

I've sold two previous cars with a private reg on and retained them. Form V317 states that it can be completed by the registered keeper of the vehicle which the plate is coming off or someone "about to become" the registered keeper. The buyer fills in this part and then nominates you as the grantee. It costs £80 to lodge with the DVLA.

To be safe, keep hold of Form V317 yourself and send it off to the DVLA with the V5C. I didn't even bother sending a cover letter and the DVLA still managed to process it correctly. I got a retention certificate for the private reg less than a fortnight later.

Alternatively it seems it can be done on line at the same time but (without having tried it) the new keeper should tax the previous reg of the car and not the retained plate

oilydan said:

Why bother with forms and all that old fashioned stuff?

I had the buyer at my house, handing over cash, I went on-line and took the 'plate off with immediate effect. Put the original 'plates on and he drove away after taxing it on-line. Insurance was already sorted as I knew the number going back on.

I don't think you need to fill forms and post stuff off nowadays? (Except maybe the V5.)

Neither of those happened in this case

[r11co]

peza220 said:

I feel this is poor sportsmanship as she told me i could have the plates with the car and now she has the money for the car is trying to steal back what she has sold.

Tecnically, no. Registration number entitlement is separate from the vehicle and is not property. As I said it comes down to following the DVLA procedure. Unless you specifically have a separate contract for the plate there is no deal.

Whether you get it or not now depends on whether the plate was put on retention before keepership was transferred (online) or at the same time (using form V317). Keepership is separate from ownership and it is down to the seller to transfer it.

If you need an example to understand the difference - think of all those lease cars that belong to the finance companies but are driven by the registered keepers.

You took ownership of the car when you paid for it. The keepership (with whatever registration the vehicle would be carrying on the DVLA database at the time of change) transferred when the previous owner notified the DVLA - either online or by post.

The registration mark is not part of the car - it is a code on a database so you can't claim foul unless you specifically made it part of the sale . You are saying you did but you cannot rely on details on V5s as evidence (see above).

The alleged text message on the other hand....

Edited by r11co on Thursday 4th January 11:43

[saaby93]

r11co said:

Tecnically, no. Registration number entitlement is separate from the vehicle and is not property. As I said it comes down to following the DVLA procedure. Unless you specifically have a separate contract for the plate there is no deal.

Whether you get it or not now depends on whether the plate was put on retention before keepership was transferred. Keepership is separate from ownership and it is down to the seller to transfer it.

If you need an example to understand the difference - think of all those lease cars that belong to the finance companies but are driven by the registered keepers.

You took ownership of the car when you paid for it. The keepership (with whatever registration the vehicle was carrying on the DVLA database at the time of change) transferred when the previous owner notified the DVLA - either online or by post.

The registration mark is not part of the car - it is a code on a database so you can't claim foul unless you specifically made it part of the sale and can prove it in writing.

Do you have a special deal going with DVLA

No. The plate stays with the car at point of transfer. DVLA are keen to emphasise that
If there's no signed receipt between the parties saying otherwise thats the default position
If youre a seller wanting to keep the plate it can either be transferred before ( ideal) - and it seems from above that can now be done online the instant before
or the new keeper can transfer it back to the old keeper just afterwards using the V317 as above

For the seller to try to do it some days later without agreement - doesnt that begin to look like fraud? ( and confirmed by the text)
only if it happens of course and everything else is against

Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 4th January 11:49

[peza220]

So in theory i could sell a car with a private plate wait a month and without the owners permission or knowledge i could take it off, if i still had paper work for the plate and sell it on and just tell them the plate never belonged to you even tho they sold it with the car.

[saaby93]

peza220 said:

So in theory i could sell a car with a private plate wait a month and without the owners permission or knowledge i could take it off, if i still had paper work for the plate and sell it on and just tell them the plate never belonged to you even tho they sold it with the car.

No

[r11co]

saaby93 said:

The plate stays with the car at point of transfer.

Correct. Keepership transfer. Nothing I said suggested otherwise.

saaby93 said:

If there's no signed receipt between the parties saying otherwise thats the default position. If you're a seller wanting to keep the plate it can either be transferred before ( ideal) - and it seems from above that can now be done online the instant before
or the new keeper can transfer it back to the old keeper just afterwards using the V317 as above.

Still comes down to the whole difference between ownership and keepership. If the money changes hands with no written agreement about the plate and retention is carried out before the change of keeper is processed then the plate goes to the existing keeper (or a grantee if they so wish).

Two ways this could happen:

1. Seller does retention online (which the seller could allege was done the day of the sale but before it was concluded) then waits for new V5C with original reg to come through post and processes change of keeper a few days later.

2. Seller posts V5C with reg they want to keep to DVLA along with V317 retention request. DVLA will follow procedure that retention should be processed first with same net effect as above.

saaby93 said:

For the seller to try to do it some days later without agreement - doesn't that begin to look like fraud?

Perhaps, but as I said we are only hearing one side of this. I know people who have lost plates because they trusted a buyer to do the right thing after sale but then backed out. It was their own stupid fault of course as they should have followed the retention procedure, but despite protestations to the DVLA and seeking legal recourse it ended up on a hiding to nothing.

It cuts both ways.