RE: £220K for a 964 RS
Discussion
Mermaid said:
If you had a 964RS worth £200k, would you even track it, or drive with as much gusto as you drive your C2?
Not really a question I can answer because a £200k car is way beyond my reach. However, I regularly join up with RS owners that still track them albeit that I think that they would have them valued closer to £100K. Many of these guys have owned them for many years and will have paid less than £40K for them. It's great to see that they're still enjoying them and using them as intended.W124 said:
Very true. The E-types, old Astons and the like - to the modern generation they don't seem easily drivable. Like a big old Bentley seems to be beyond my meagre skills. Also they need a lot of care and attention as they are very old cars now - the cost of keeping even an 80's Aston in a shape where it'll hold it's value in the long term is eye watering. I think you are bang on to identify the GTR/Skyline as a wise bet. I'm tempted to buy a load of LS 400's just because of the Street Fighter 2 connection. Also - the ability of classic cars comes into play. Driving a classic 911, for example, at speed, is pretty hard if it's raining.
BTW - in your profile - you had a 124 Sports Coupe, is that a 124 3p? I owned one, absolutely loved it!
It was a fiat 124 bc coupe ....1600 twin cam ....engine design by ex Ferrari engineer .....great car , underrated ....wish I'd kept it as the engine was a gem ...light and revs ..BTW - in your profile - you had a 124 Sports Coupe, is that a 124 3p? I owned one, absolutely loved it!
I also wonder if the electric car industry gets a foothold , cars like the tesla model s , seem very close to promising everything one needs ........if they do become the choice for car buyers ....would it kill off the lust for most people with classic big engine petrol burners ?
I had a big v8 427 and in the end with cost of fuel .. A drive was a form of entertainment a cost ....rather then the share joy of being able to use it all the time ...then parts and constant upkeep ......
I used to enjoy keeping carbs in tune e.t.c
But the young guys would laugh at this , there idea of fun is diagnostics with ecu chips and laptop tuning
When I first started getting classic car mags they had features on bentleys and the sort .... Would of been a horror to have a Japanese car in the mag , but now they feature quite often ....
As you say ...buy the Ls 400 e.t.c ,
Sell the old Porsches at big money to people in there 40,s to 50's ....now as they might not be buying or driving in ten years
ORD said:
Nope. I would sell it in a hearbeat. The prices are absolutely absurd and are not prices for a car as a car, so I would not use it as a car; and I would not want it as an antique to sit in a garage, so I would cash in and pay off £100k of my mortgage and use the rest to buy 2 excelllent modern cars.
Mermaid said:
ORD said:
Nope. I would sell it in a hearbeat. The prices are absolutely absurd and are not prices for a car as a car, so I would not use it as a car; and I would not want it as an antique to sit in a garage, so I would cash in and pay off £100k of my mortgage and use the rest to buy 2 excelllent modern cars.
I can think of many modern sports cars for a fraction of the cost and dynamically a lot better
Could buy a boxster for £ 4000 to 7000 in good nick ,
A very good car .. With the only biased comments against it is to do with image ...hairdresser e.t.c
But the porsche in this feature really 30 or more times better ?
How about a 458 Speciale?!
I saw one recently for around £200k on the nose.
I wasn't previously the world's biggest 458 fan and would have probably gone for the MP412C given the choice.
However having a good look at the exquisite details on the Speciale had me wondering if that was still the case.
I think I'd take one over a 650S. Never mind a 964RS!
I saw one recently for around £200k on the nose.
I wasn't previously the world's biggest 458 fan and would have probably gone for the MP412C given the choice.
However having a good look at the exquisite details on the Speciale had me wondering if that was still the case.
I think I'd take one over a 650S. Never mind a 964RS!
The Pits said:
How about a 458 Speciale?!
I saw one recently for around £200k on the nose.
I wasn't previously the world's biggest 458 fan and would have probably gone for the MP412C given the choice.
However having a good look at the exquisite details on the Speciale had me wondering if that was still the case.
I think I'd take one over a 650S. Never mind a 964RS!
The 458 Speciale is the only current production car that makes me fantasise about buying one! It is fricking exquisite.I saw one recently for around £200k on the nose.
I wasn't previously the world's biggest 458 fan and would have probably gone for the MP412C given the choice.
However having a good look at the exquisite details on the Speciale had me wondering if that was still the case.
I think I'd take one over a 650S. Never mind a 964RS!
angelicupstarts said:
But the young guys would laugh at this , there idea of fun is diagnostics with ecu chips and laptop tuning
When I first started getting classic car mags they had features on bentleys and the sort .... Would of been a horror to have a Japanese car in the mag , but now they feature quite often ....
As you say ...buy the Ls 400 e.t.c ,
Sell the old Porsches at big money to people in there 40,s to 50's ....now as they might not be buying or driving in ten years
I don't think think this is true at the top end of the market. Bugattis from the 1930's are still worth a small fortune and Gullwing Mercs from the 1950's likewise. People who now own them didn't grow up seeing them on the roads. The nostalgia market has a part to play but it's not the sole reason people buy old cars. I think the skyline is fairly boring looking bordering on ugly and will never achieve the high prices some European exotics have achieved.When I first started getting classic car mags they had features on bentleys and the sort .... Would of been a horror to have a Japanese car in the mag , but now they feature quite often ....
As you say ...buy the Ls 400 e.t.c ,
Sell the old Porsches at big money to people in there 40,s to 50's ....now as they might not be buying or driving in ten years
OlberJ said:
You think a 4 grand Boxster is on a par with an aircooled RS from an ownership perspective?
No not on par ...but have been in genuine 1973 911 RS. , when I was porsche club member many years ago Great car ... But also now going for silly money
The car in this article is around 55 times the price of a older boxster
I do struggle to believe it is 55 times better ?
And no I don't own a boxster
And I have paid silly money for old tin in the past ... And looking back the cars just are not worth that amount
But it seems to be hitting another high in classic motoring world ...
Early boxster was 0 to 60 in 6.9
Think 964 rs is 0 to 60 in 5.9 .......from memory here ?
Handling more neutral in boxster ....
Of course RS is more desirable ...but 55. Times more .... Just can't see the justification for it being so much more ?
Strawman said:
I don't think think this is true at the top end of the market. Bugattis from the 1930's are still worth a small fortune and Gullwing Mercs from the 1950's likewise. People who now own them didn't grow up seeing them on the roads. The nostalgia market has a part to play but it's not the sole reason people buy old cars. I think the skyline is fairly boring looking bordering on ugly and will never achieve the high prices some European exotics have achieved.
I'm totally with you ...I agree gullwings and the like are top icons And look wise miles ahead ..
But just can't shake the feeling that there will be fewer and fewer people wanting to invest in them in another ten years ..give or take ..
Bugattis from 1930 are wonderful machines ...and I truly mean mechanical machines ....most the owners would still be a few years over middle aged I'd imagine ?
And can't see them appealing to my son in the way they do to me .
Numbers do come into it as we'll I guess a blower Bentley is a rare thing ....but the amount of some classics out there ... Jags , porsche , mg , triumph .... Prices will surely have to fall .?
An example is triumph gt6 ...... Why would any of the young crowd nowadays choose one over a Nissan 350 ?
That 964 RS - in ideal collectors condition - unmolested and low mileage - had a lot of interest in it - and is a world market car today - as an example there are LOT of RS derivatives now resident in the Far East than there were 5 years ago - FACT. To a lot of these new buyers in this region this car is f
k all money. Equally to a lot of people in the UK whose property has dramatically appreciated or economic circumstances have improved recently - putting some money into an old car is what they want to do - irrespective of whether it will appreciate/depreciate - if they suspect it won't lose much money - it's a bonus.
The market spoke on what the car was worth to actual buyers on the day - opposed to people who have an opinion based on what they "think" it is worth without actively being in the market themselves - yet equally having opinions on what other people should do with their money.
A lot of people are into these cars at substantially less than what this example raised at the weekend - and although nominally an 964 RS on paper is worth a fair bit more than 6 months ago - nothing has really changed on how you use it - if you have a ding on a trackday - at least you know the value of the car warrants repairing it. Equally a lot of people who have got the cars - have no interest in selling them to replace them with modern cars?! - it is a completely different market?! Besides the fact that the RS on the day sold for x amount - does not automatically place all the remaining 964 RS examples in the same price bracket - although it won't have done them any harm.
When the cars were new they were deemed to be set up overly stiff for the road - tricky on the limit etc - for a lot of people - as a fun car to drive at the weekends - that makes it an altogether more thrilling and rewarding proposition today - for an enthusiast who is bored with the competence/intrusion on the driving experience of modern fast cars with driver aids - that need to be driven at very high speeds to provide any form of driver engagement.
Quantifying the boxster/rs argument - is it x times better? - is irrelevant. They are not exactly cars which a prospective purchaser would have on the same list - FWIW I think a Boxster is a great sweet handling car to drive - but to me it's not on the same orbit for driving thrills or ownership satisfaction - i have never owned a Boxster so am making a presumption. I would love a 2.8 RSR - but sadly lacking the £1m+ for a good example - but if i had the money to spend on one I would do it in a heartbeat and would have no interest in quantifying whether it was "worth" 7 figures - I just want one - end of - and would drive it enthusiastically. Sadly I am not sure I will be in a position to prove that for the foreseeable future!
Finally for those of you "waiting" for a market correction and think the cars are over-valued - what are you doing with your money thats so smart in the meantime? - I would love to know - really want a 2.8 RS!
k all money. Equally to a lot of people in the UK whose property has dramatically appreciated or economic circumstances have improved recently - putting some money into an old car is what they want to do - irrespective of whether it will appreciate/depreciate - if they suspect it won't lose much money - it's a bonus. The market spoke on what the car was worth to actual buyers on the day - opposed to people who have an opinion based on what they "think" it is worth without actively being in the market themselves - yet equally having opinions on what other people should do with their money.
A lot of people are into these cars at substantially less than what this example raised at the weekend - and although nominally an 964 RS on paper is worth a fair bit more than 6 months ago - nothing has really changed on how you use it - if you have a ding on a trackday - at least you know the value of the car warrants repairing it. Equally a lot of people who have got the cars - have no interest in selling them to replace them with modern cars?! - it is a completely different market?! Besides the fact that the RS on the day sold for x amount - does not automatically place all the remaining 964 RS examples in the same price bracket - although it won't have done them any harm.
When the cars were new they were deemed to be set up overly stiff for the road - tricky on the limit etc - for a lot of people - as a fun car to drive at the weekends - that makes it an altogether more thrilling and rewarding proposition today - for an enthusiast who is bored with the competence/intrusion on the driving experience of modern fast cars with driver aids - that need to be driven at very high speeds to provide any form of driver engagement.
Quantifying the boxster/rs argument - is it x times better? - is irrelevant. They are not exactly cars which a prospective purchaser would have on the same list - FWIW I think a Boxster is a great sweet handling car to drive - but to me it's not on the same orbit for driving thrills or ownership satisfaction - i have never owned a Boxster so am making a presumption. I would love a 2.8 RSR - but sadly lacking the £1m+ for a good example - but if i had the money to spend on one I would do it in a heartbeat and would have no interest in quantifying whether it was "worth" 7 figures - I just want one - end of - and would drive it enthusiastically. Sadly I am not sure I will be in a position to prove that for the foreseeable future!
Finally for those of you "waiting" for a market correction and think the cars are over-valued - what are you doing with your money thats so smart in the meantime? - I would love to know - really want a 2.8 RS!
rossb said:
That 964 RS - in ideal collectors condition - unmolested and low mileage - had a lot of interest in it - and is a world market car today - as an example there are LOT of RS derivatives now resident in the Far East than there were 5 years ago - FACT. To a lot of these new buyers in this region this car is fk all money. Equally to a lot of people in the UK whose property has dramatically appreciated or economic circumstances have improved recently - putting some money into an old car is what they want to do - irrespective of whether it will appreciate/depreciate - if they suspect it won't lose much money - it's a bonus.
The market spoke on what the car was worth to actual buyers on the day - opposed to people who have an opinion based on what they "think" it is worth without actively being in the market themselves - yet equally having opinions on what other people should do with their money.
A lot of people are into these cars at substantially less than what this example raised at the weekend - and although nominally an 964 RS on paper is worth a fair bit more than 6 months ago - nothing has really changed on how you use it - if you have a ding on a trackday - at least you know the value of the car warrants repairing it. Equally a lot of people who have got the cars - have no interest in selling them to replace them with modern cars?! - it is a completely different market?! Besides the fact that the RS on the day sold for x amount - does not automatically place all the remaining 964 RS examples in the same price bracket - although it won't have done them any harm.
When the cars were new they were deemed to be set up overly stiff for the road - tricky on the limit etc - for a lot of people - as a fun car to drive at the weekends - that makes it an altogether more thrilling and rewarding proposition today - for an enthusiast who is bored with the competence/intrusion on the driving experience of modern fast cars with driver aids - that need to be driven at very high speeds to provide any form of driver engagement.
Quantifying the boxster/rs argument - is it x times better? - is irrelevant. They are not exactly cars which a prospective purchaser would have on the same list - FWIW I think a Boxster is a great sweet handling car to drive - but to me it's not on the same orbit for driving thrills or ownership satisfaction - i have never owned a Boxster so am making a presumption. I would love a 2.8 RSR - but sadly lacking the £1m+ for a good example - but if i had the money to spend on one I would do it in a heartbeat and would have no interest in quantifying whether it was "worth" 7 figures - I just want one - end of - and would drive it enthusiastically. Sadly I am not sure I will be in a position to prove that for the foreseeable future!
Finally for those of you "waiting" for a market correction and think the cars are over-valued - what are you doing with your money thats so smart in the meantime? - I would love to know - really want a 2.8 RS!
Good point ...and I guess a lot of these cars are going to the east k all money. Equally to a lot of people in the UK whose property has dramatically appreciated or economic circumstances have improved recently - putting some money into an old car is what they want to do - irrespective of whether it will appreciate/depreciate - if they suspect it won't lose much money - it's a bonus. The market spoke on what the car was worth to actual buyers on the day - opposed to people who have an opinion based on what they "think" it is worth without actively being in the market themselves - yet equally having opinions on what other people should do with their money.
A lot of people are into these cars at substantially less than what this example raised at the weekend - and although nominally an 964 RS on paper is worth a fair bit more than 6 months ago - nothing has really changed on how you use it - if you have a ding on a trackday - at least you know the value of the car warrants repairing it. Equally a lot of people who have got the cars - have no interest in selling them to replace them with modern cars?! - it is a completely different market?! Besides the fact that the RS on the day sold for x amount - does not automatically place all the remaining 964 RS examples in the same price bracket - although it won't have done them any harm.
When the cars were new they were deemed to be set up overly stiff for the road - tricky on the limit etc - for a lot of people - as a fun car to drive at the weekends - that makes it an altogether more thrilling and rewarding proposition today - for an enthusiast who is bored with the competence/intrusion on the driving experience of modern fast cars with driver aids - that need to be driven at very high speeds to provide any form of driver engagement.
Quantifying the boxster/rs argument - is it x times better? - is irrelevant. They are not exactly cars which a prospective purchaser would have on the same list - FWIW I think a Boxster is a great sweet handling car to drive - but to me it's not on the same orbit for driving thrills or ownership satisfaction - i have never owned a Boxster so am making a presumption. I would love a 2.8 RSR - but sadly lacking the £1m+ for a good example - but if i had the money to spend on one I would do it in a heartbeat and would have no interest in quantifying whether it was "worth" 7 figures - I just want one - end of - and would drive it enthusiastically. Sadly I am not sure I will be in a position to prove that for the foreseeable future!
Finally for those of you "waiting" for a market correction and think the cars are over-valued - what are you doing with your money thats so smart in the meantime? - I would love to know - really want a 2.8 RS!
ORD said:
Nope. I would sell it in a hearbeat. The prices are absolutely absurd and are not prices for a car as a car, so I would not use it as a car; and I would not want it as an antique to sit in a garage, so I would cash in and pay off £100k of my mortgage and use the rest to buy 2 excelllent modern cars.
Spending £200k on old car is an exercise in speculative investment. No more and no less.
I disagree. You have no idea at all about the motivation of the buyer. Something tells me he's not worried about paying off £100k of his mortgage! I'd even hazard a guess he's already got 2 excellent modern cars. I dont think an RS is worth even 100k let alone over 200 so massively overpaying at auction plus fees when there are plenty cheaper for sale elsewhere would also seem like a bizarre way to 'invest'. As for not using the car, well thats just your opinion... mine will be getting its freshly rebuilt 3.8's nuts thrashed off it on track, just like it has the last 10 years. My kids can worry about how much it's worth. Spending £200k on old car is an exercise in speculative investment. No more and no less.
angelicupstarts said:
Numbers do come into it as we'll I guess a blower Bentley is a rare thing ....but the amount of some classics out there ... Jags , porsche , mg , triumph .... Prices will surely have to fall .?
An example is triumph gt6 ...... Why would any of the young crowd nowadays choose one over a Nissan 350 ?
I agree with the triumph, near the end (BL?) of the marque and with a fixed roof.An example is triumph gt6 ...... Why would any of the young crowd nowadays choose one over a Nissan 350 ?
I wonder what will happen for the middle market cars in terms of environmental legislation too, Low Emission Zones are in force in some cities for cars (not just Lorries) already and that can mean making Classic cars compliant difficult. Also the cost of petrol will continue to rise.
Love it.rossb said:
That 964 RS - in ideal collectors condition - unmolested and low mileage - had a lot of interest in it - and is a world market car today - as an example there are LOT of RS derivatives now resident in the Far East than there were 5 years ago - FACT. To a lot of these new buyers in this region this car is fk all money. Equally to a lot of people in the UK whose property has dramatically appreciated or economic circumstances have improved recently - putting some money into an old car is what they want to do - irrespective of whether it will appreciate/depreciate - if they suspect it won't lose much money - it's a bonus.
The market spoke on what the car was worth to actual buyers on the day - opposed to people who have an opinion based on what they "think" it is worth without actively being in the market themselves - yet equally having opinions on what other people should do with their money.
A lot of people are into these cars at substantially less than what this example raised at the weekend - and although nominally an 964 RS on paper is worth a fair bit more than 6 months ago - nothing has really changed on how you use it - if you have a ding on a trackday - at least you know the value of the car warrants repairing it. Equally a lot of people who have got the cars - have no interest in selling them to replace them with modern cars?! - it is a completely different market?! Besides the fact that the RS on the day sold for x amount - does not automatically place all the remaining 964 RS examples in the same price bracket - although it won't have done them any harm.
When the cars were new they were deemed to be set up overly stiff for the road - tricky on the limit etc - for a lot of people - as a fun car to drive at the weekends - that makes it an altogether more thrilling and rewarding proposition today - for an enthusiast who is bored with the competence/intrusion on the driving experience of modern fast cars with driver aids - that need to be driven at very high speeds to provide any form of driver engagement.
Quantifying the boxster/rs argument - is it x times better? - is irrelevant. They are not exactly cars which a prospective purchaser would have on the same list - FWIW I think a Boxster is a great sweet handling car to drive - but to me it's not on the same orbit for driving thrills or ownership satisfaction - i have never owned a Boxster so am making a presumption. I would love a 2.8 RSR - but sadly lacking the £1m+ for a good example - but if i had the money to spend on one I would do it in a heartbeat and would have no interest in quantifying whether it was "worth" 7 figures - I just want one - end of - and would drive it enthusiastically. Sadly I am not sure I will be in a position to prove that for the foreseeable future!
Finally for those of you "waiting" for a market correction and think the cars are over-valued - what are you doing with your money thats so smart in the meantime? - I would love to know - really want a 2.8 RS!
Well, I'm wasting mine. Good point though, well made. k all money. Equally to a lot of people in the UK whose property has dramatically appreciated or economic circumstances have improved recently - putting some money into an old car is what they want to do - irrespective of whether it will appreciate/depreciate - if they suspect it won't lose much money - it's a bonus. The market spoke on what the car was worth to actual buyers on the day - opposed to people who have an opinion based on what they "think" it is worth without actively being in the market themselves - yet equally having opinions on what other people should do with their money.
A lot of people are into these cars at substantially less than what this example raised at the weekend - and although nominally an 964 RS on paper is worth a fair bit more than 6 months ago - nothing has really changed on how you use it - if you have a ding on a trackday - at least you know the value of the car warrants repairing it. Equally a lot of people who have got the cars - have no interest in selling them to replace them with modern cars?! - it is a completely different market?! Besides the fact that the RS on the day sold for x amount - does not automatically place all the remaining 964 RS examples in the same price bracket - although it won't have done them any harm.
When the cars were new they were deemed to be set up overly stiff for the road - tricky on the limit etc - for a lot of people - as a fun car to drive at the weekends - that makes it an altogether more thrilling and rewarding proposition today - for an enthusiast who is bored with the competence/intrusion on the driving experience of modern fast cars with driver aids - that need to be driven at very high speeds to provide any form of driver engagement.
Quantifying the boxster/rs argument - is it x times better? - is irrelevant. They are not exactly cars which a prospective purchaser would have on the same list - FWIW I think a Boxster is a great sweet handling car to drive - but to me it's not on the same orbit for driving thrills or ownership satisfaction - i have never owned a Boxster so am making a presumption. I would love a 2.8 RSR - but sadly lacking the £1m+ for a good example - but if i had the money to spend on one I would do it in a heartbeat and would have no interest in quantifying whether it was "worth" 7 figures - I just want one - end of - and would drive it enthusiastically. Sadly I am not sure I will be in a position to prove that for the foreseeable future!
Finally for those of you "waiting" for a market correction and think the cars are over-valued - what are you doing with your money thats so smart in the meantime? - I would love to know - really want a 2.8 RS!
This article is really about whether we think there's a bubble or not - so you would expect people to comment along those lines. Also, I'm not sure that not being in the market means that people can't comment for some reason. This place would be pretty quiet if that were the case. To be honest - houses and cars look a bit toppy to me. Stating what I'd do with my money is not the same thing as telling somebody else what to do with theirs. I would never, ever tell anyone what to spend their money on. With the exception of my ex-wife.
W124 said:
Well, I'm wasting mine. Good point though, well made.
This article is really about whether we think there's a bubble or not - so you would expect people to comment along those lines. Also, I'm not sure that not being in the market means that people can't comment for some reason. This place would be pretty quiet if that were the case. To be honest - houses and cars look a bit toppy to me. Stating what I'd do with my money is not the same thing as telling somebody else what to do with theirs. I would never, ever tell anyone what to spend their money on. With the exception of my ex-wife.
Fair comment - like the ex-wife bit. If I am owning up - my other half is told all old car/bike expenditure is an investment - and precise figures are presented in a rather opaque manner - if on the very odd occasion I have not dropped a load of money on another money pit - (which is what happens frequently) I tend to try and make the most of it to deflect attention from the less successful purchases. Anyway I am serious about an RSR - and will purchase a lottery ticket on way home tonight - even if I am buying in a heated market.This article is really about whether we think there's a bubble or not - so you would expect people to comment along those lines. Also, I'm not sure that not being in the market means that people can't comment for some reason. This place would be pretty quiet if that were the case. To be honest - houses and cars look a bit toppy to me. Stating what I'd do with my money is not the same thing as telling somebody else what to do with theirs. I would never, ever tell anyone what to spend their money on. With the exception of my ex-wife.
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