RE: Horst von Saurma: PH Meets
Discussion
monthefish said:
Debaser said:
monthefish said:
isleofthorns said:
8.35 for the first generation SMG e36 m3 is pretty impressive.. it takes almost that long to change gears!
...and perhaps explains why Jethro Bovingdon was unable to achieve his target of creating a sub 8 mins E36 M3. Evo article said:
Another, marginally quicker M3 has been making the headlines at the Ring recently. A few days after Pagani’s production-car lap record run (see issue 112), a modified E46 M3 CSL, supercharged to generate over 600bhp, lapped the full circuit in 7:22.9 – or almost exactly one minute quicker than my M3 managed on its first run!
Intesresting that the unfettled car did an 8:22. Does that show the SMG was a big handicap?Whereas some other driver (JB) managed an 8:22 in a manual car, then the gap between the two cars is at least 13 seconds (and almost certainly more if it were HvS driving that manual)
That was interesting. 
I agree with others that his times are more relevant (for arguing on the internet 
) than a lot of ring times because it's the same guy in similar conditions with similar time spent in each car.
The GT3 times look interesting to me as the 996 GT3 seems so fast compared to the 991. Was that time set on those focused pilot cups? They look a bit like those focused tyres the GT-R uses with the outer third-ish almost slick.
I agree with others that his times are more relevant (for arguing on the internet ) than a lot of ring times because it's the same guy in similar conditions with similar time spent in each car. The GT3 times look interesting to me as the 996 GT3 seems so fast compared to the 991. Was that time set on those focused pilot cups? They look a bit like those focused tyres the GT-R uses with the outer third-ish almost slick.
Der Horst has become a bit of a Ringmeister in his own right with the thousands of laps he has put in there over the years.
Ofttimes he has gotten stick from people who accuse him of not getting the best laptime possible from a car, but crucially, that is not the point.
Like the article states, he doesn't spend weeks with a car getting to know it and tinkering with the set-up, but just gets in, does one lap to get a feel and warm the car through, then gives it what he is comfortable with for the second lap. And that time on that lap will have to do.
For instance, he did an 8:15 in the BMW 1M. A few weeks later a testdriver for Renault - I forget who - did the half-famous 8:07 in a Megane RS Trophy.
Instantly, on a Dutch car-(BMW) forum there were feathers flying about how a FWD 265 bhp Renault could demolish a RWD 340 bhp M-product.
People don't realise that von Saurma does not (and never claims to) set the ultimate time possible.
And the manufacturers' times usually are set by race-drivers who know their car inside out, get the set-up sorted to a T, wait for perfect conditions, pick track-oriented tyres, get threatened by the manufacturer to deliver something truly special or die trying, and then take a handful of brave-pills, stick a knife between their teeth and go for a complete crazy-ape-bonkers banzai lap.
For reference, Horst did a Supertest on a Megane 250, Ringtime 8:29. Most likely he would have done something between 8:20/25 in that Trophy. 1M owners keep breathing.
Then when he did the Supertest on the 997 Turbo Horst even got a word from Walter Röhrl, complaining his time was at least ten seconds slower than the time Röhrl managed during development. Market-savvy Porsche know very well how much exposure and importance the sportAuto Supertests have acquired worldwide over the years, and they were keen to stress that their new baby could go a bit faster than der Horst was going to let on. Missing the point as well, lads.
Porsche then got some egg on their face when Nissan brought in the R-35 GT-R and claimed some ridiculous Ringtime like 7:30 or something. Porsche's marketing department famously went all overboard and said they had bought an R-35 and that "none of their testdrivers could lap the Ring in it any faster than 7:54". Cue Nissan with their cheeky reposte of how they would have to teach the Porsche drivers how to drive, but also the GT-R featuring in the sportAuto Supertest shortly after Porsche's accusation.
Von Saurma coolly delivered a time of 7:38. Ten minutes after first getting into a GT-R on his second lap out.
Porsche still give him their cars though, and so they should. Horst von Saurma has earned his place in motoring journalism, and no mistake.
Ofttimes he has gotten stick from people who accuse him of not getting the best laptime possible from a car, but crucially, that is not the point.
Like the article states, he doesn't spend weeks with a car getting to know it and tinkering with the set-up, but just gets in, does one lap to get a feel and warm the car through, then gives it what he is comfortable with for the second lap. And that time on that lap will have to do.
For instance, he did an 8:15 in the BMW 1M. A few weeks later a testdriver for Renault - I forget who - did the half-famous 8:07 in a Megane RS Trophy.
Instantly, on a Dutch car-(BMW) forum there were feathers flying about how a FWD 265 bhp Renault could demolish a RWD 340 bhp M-product.
People don't realise that von Saurma does not (and never claims to) set the ultimate time possible.
And the manufacturers' times usually are set by race-drivers who know their car inside out, get the set-up sorted to a T, wait for perfect conditions, pick track-oriented tyres, get threatened by the manufacturer to deliver something truly special or die trying, and then take a handful of brave-pills, stick a knife between their teeth and go for a complete crazy-ape-bonkers banzai lap.
For reference, Horst did a Supertest on a Megane 250, Ringtime 8:29. Most likely he would have done something between 8:20/25 in that Trophy. 1M owners keep breathing.
Then when he did the Supertest on the 997 Turbo Horst even got a word from Walter Röhrl, complaining his time was at least ten seconds slower than the time Röhrl managed during development. Market-savvy Porsche know very well how much exposure and importance the sportAuto Supertests have acquired worldwide over the years, and they were keen to stress that their new baby could go a bit faster than der Horst was going to let on. Missing the point as well, lads.
Porsche then got some egg on their face when Nissan brought in the R-35 GT-R and claimed some ridiculous Ringtime like 7:30 or something. Porsche's marketing department famously went all overboard and said they had bought an R-35 and that "none of their testdrivers could lap the Ring in it any faster than 7:54". Cue Nissan with their cheeky reposte of how they would have to teach the Porsche drivers how to drive, but also the GT-R featuring in the sportAuto Supertest shortly after Porsche's accusation.
Von Saurma coolly delivered a time of 7:38. Ten minutes after first getting into a GT-R on his second lap out.
Porsche still give him their cars though, and so they should. Horst von Saurma has earned his place in motoring journalism, and no mistake.
323ti said:
Der Horst has become a bit of a Ringmeister in his own right with the thousands of laps he has put in there over the years.
Ofttimes he has gotten stick from people who accuse him of not getting the best laptime possible from a car, but crucially, that is not the point.
Like the article states, he doesn't spend weeks with a car getting to know it and tinkering with the set-up, but just gets in, does one lap to get a feel and warm the car through, then gives it what he is comfortable with for the second lap. And that time on that lap will have to do.
For instance, he did an 8:15 in the BMW 1M. A few weeks later a testdriver for Renault - I forget who - did the half-famous 8:07 in a Megane RS Trophy.
Instantly, on a Dutch car-(BMW) forum there were feathers flying about how a FWD 265 bhp Renault could demolish a RWD 340 bhp M-product.
People don't realise that von Saurma does not (and never claims to) set the ultimate time possible.
And the manufacturers' times usually are set by race-drivers who know their car inside out, get the set-up sorted to a T, wait for perfect conditions, pick track-oriented tyres, get threatened by the manufacturer to deliver something truly special or die trying, and then take a handful of brave-pills, stick a knife between their teeth and go for a complete crazy-ape-bonkers banzai lap.
For reference, Horst did a Supertest on a Megane 250, Ringtime 8:29. Most likely he would have done something between 8:20/25 in that Trophy. 1M owners keep breathing.
Then when he did the Supertest on the 997 Turbo Horst even got a word from Walter Röhrl, complaining his time was at least ten seconds slower than the time Röhrl managed during development. Market-savvy Porsche know very well how much exposure and importance the sportAuto Supertests have acquired worldwide over the years, and they were keen to stress that their new baby could go a bit faster than der Horst was going to let on. Missing the point as well, lads.
Porsche then got some egg on their face when Nissan brought in the R-35 GT-R and claimed some ridiculous Ringtime like 7:30 or something. Porsche's marketing department famously went all overboard and said they had bought an R-35 and that "none of their testdrivers could lap the Ring in it any faster than 7:54". Cue Nissan with their cheeky reposte of how they would have to teach the Porsche drivers how to drive, but also the GT-R featuring in the sportAuto Supertest shortly after Porsche's accusation.
Von Saurma coolly delivered a time of 7:38. Ten minutes after first getting into a GT-R on his second lap out.
Porsche still give him their cars though, and so they should. Horst von Saurma has earned his place in motoring journalism, and no mistake.
Well spoken. Ofttimes he has gotten stick from people who accuse him of not getting the best laptime possible from a car, but crucially, that is not the point.
Like the article states, he doesn't spend weeks with a car getting to know it and tinkering with the set-up, but just gets in, does one lap to get a feel and warm the car through, then gives it what he is comfortable with for the second lap. And that time on that lap will have to do.
For instance, he did an 8:15 in the BMW 1M. A few weeks later a testdriver for Renault - I forget who - did the half-famous 8:07 in a Megane RS Trophy.
Instantly, on a Dutch car-(BMW) forum there were feathers flying about how a FWD 265 bhp Renault could demolish a RWD 340 bhp M-product.
People don't realise that von Saurma does not (and never claims to) set the ultimate time possible.
And the manufacturers' times usually are set by race-drivers who know their car inside out, get the set-up sorted to a T, wait for perfect conditions, pick track-oriented tyres, get threatened by the manufacturer to deliver something truly special or die trying, and then take a handful of brave-pills, stick a knife between their teeth and go for a complete crazy-ape-bonkers banzai lap.
For reference, Horst did a Supertest on a Megane 250, Ringtime 8:29. Most likely he would have done something between 8:20/25 in that Trophy. 1M owners keep breathing.
Then when he did the Supertest on the 997 Turbo Horst even got a word from Walter Röhrl, complaining his time was at least ten seconds slower than the time Röhrl managed during development. Market-savvy Porsche know very well how much exposure and importance the sportAuto Supertests have acquired worldwide over the years, and they were keen to stress that their new baby could go a bit faster than der Horst was going to let on. Missing the point as well, lads.
Porsche then got some egg on their face when Nissan brought in the R-35 GT-R and claimed some ridiculous Ringtime like 7:30 or something. Porsche's marketing department famously went all overboard and said they had bought an R-35 and that "none of their testdrivers could lap the Ring in it any faster than 7:54". Cue Nissan with their cheeky reposte of how they would have to teach the Porsche drivers how to drive, but also the GT-R featuring in the sportAuto Supertest shortly after Porsche's accusation.
Von Saurma coolly delivered a time of 7:38. Ten minutes after first getting into a GT-R on his second lap out.
Porsche still give him their cars though, and so they should. Horst von Saurma has earned his place in motoring journalism, and no mistake.
In the discussion about Ringtime relevance we shouldn't forget one thing: Ring laptimes ARE relevant! How can they not be!? When Ringlaptimes are no longer important to performance cars, beauty ceases to be a factor in a miss universe contest. Batting average is no longer important to a baseballplayer. Intelligence is no longer a requirement for a university professor. Comfort has become irrelevant in a limousine. You catch my drift.
In an editorial piece in EVO magazine a few months ago, Nick Trott described the Ring laptime contest as a form of motorsport itself, but without a governing body, without appropriate safety measurements, without independent adjudicators, a form of motorsport that is governed by the competitors themselves. He does have a point. But his point does not mean that Ring laptimes are irrelevant to performance cars. And that is exactly where Horst von Saurma's Supertest comes into play. We can assume that he is independent of the manufacturers, the lap times are always done by the same driver, the conditions are as much as is possible, comparable. Yes, track conditions will differ, weather conditions (most notably atmospheric pressure and air temperature) as well. But that is inevitable, and therefore even von Saurma's times shouldn't be regarded as exact science. But do play an important role in assessing the capabilities of a performance car.
Re: Maybe 90 per cent of owners will never drive their cars in this way but they know and it is important. It is testing the whole part of the car, the brakes, the suspension, the engine. Everything."
I think 99% of the owners will never get near full 10/10s of their machinery. I spoke to an exclusive car dealer and all Lamborghini's return after one or two years and with only a few 1000 miles on the clock. Sad.
To get full ability of the car one has to daily drive the damn thing to et even near 8/10s! I mean a 700 brake Lambo . . . wow.
I sat next to a very experienced driver who did 8:30 in a beefy Z06. That's a minute less than the Z06 fastest 'Ringlap. Ouch . . . I did puke when I hit ground again. #rollercoaster
I think 99% of the owners will never get near full 10/10s of their machinery. I spoke to an exclusive car dealer and all Lamborghini's return after one or two years and with only a few 1000 miles on the clock. Sad.
To get full ability of the car one has to daily drive the damn thing to et even near 8/10s! I mean a 700 brake Lambo . . . wow.
I sat next to a very experienced driver who did 8:30 in a beefy Z06. That's a minute less than the Z06 fastest 'Ringlap. Ouch . . . I did puke when I hit ground again. #rollercoaster
dinkel said:
I think 99% of the owners will never get near full 10/10s of their machinery. I spoke to an exclusive car dealer and all Lamborghini's return after one or two years and with only a few 1000 miles on the clock. Sad.
To get full ability of the car one has to daily drive the damn thing to et even near 8/10s! I mean a 700 brake Lambo . . . wow.
That is why sub 100ps rental cars are so much fun.To get full ability of the car one has to daily drive the damn thing to et even near 8/10s! I mean a 700 brake Lambo . . . wow.
Housey said:
smilo996 said:
They should open up the Isle of Man TT track to laps. Now that would be a real test of a car's ability.
That would be rather good, love to see if they could get a car over the bike record.Debaser said:
Housey said:
smilo996 said:
They should open up the Isle of Man TT track to laps. Now that would be a real test of a car's ability.
That would be rather good, love to see if they could get a car over the bike record.Housey said:
Debaser said:
Housey said:
smilo996 said:
They should open up the Isle of Man TT track to laps. Now that would be a real test of a car's ability.
That would be rather good, love to see if they could get a car over the bike record.I think something with slicks and downforce would be your best bet for setting a car lap time. I'm sure you could set up a Formula 1 car to cope with the bumps and it would be fast around there.
RE a car round the IOM course, there is footage on Youtube somewhere of the late & much-missed Tony Pond taking a lightly-tuned Rover SD1 Vitesse around the TT circuit, with on-board camera and himself providing a running commentary. Can't remember the time he set but it was quite impressive for the era.
andybu said:
RE a car round the IOM course, there is footage on Youtube somewhere of the late & much-missed Tony Pond taking a lightly-tuned Rover SD1 Vitesse around the TT circuit, with on-board camera and himself providing a running commentary. Can't remember the time he set but it was quite impressive for the era.
Is Mark Higgins having another go at the moment as well?andybu said:
Not to my knowledge, but he has in the past & more recently so than TP, of course. That one is also on Youtube..
Currently having a go according to twitter etchttp://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/motorsport/27124820
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