RE: Aston Martin Vanquish MY15: Review
Discussion
ZX10R NIN said:
DonkeyApple said:
That raises the question as to why not skip the ZF8 and take the 9G Tronic now? You are already investing in changing the ECU to talk to the new TCU and re-engineer the mounting. Besides, you are going to be doing that again when you take the AMG units.
The main reason for all the ratios isn't performance it's emissions & official mpg figures, 6 well judged ratio's is more than enough to do the job.As for dsg gearboxes etc, they are great when new but compared to a conventional auto or manual they are a nightmare once they get past a certain mileage or if the cutomer upgrades the cars performance, I have a Golf GTI in the workshop that is basically a write off because the gearbox repair will come to just under 5k the 650bhp sl55 will cost 2k to rebuild the gearbox
martin elaman said:
Amirhussain said:
Car companies don't give a f
k about enthusiasts 
Good point.k about enthusiasts This is all going a bit off-topic, but Telegraph reported last week that the new Mercedes E350 has a 9 speed gearbox developed by ZF
I say its off-topic as my understanding is that, at this point, the Mercedes-Aston Martin deal is only to provide AMG engines and certain electronics. Not transmissions.
I say its off-topic as my understanding is that, at this point, the Mercedes-Aston Martin deal is only to provide AMG engines and certain electronics. Not transmissions.
ZX10R NIN said:
DonkeyApple said:
That raises the question as to why not skip the ZF8 and take the 9G Tronic now? You are already investing in changing the ECU to talk to the new TCU and re-engineer the mounting. Besides, you are going to be doing that again when you take the AMG units.
The main reason for all the ratios isn't performance it's emissions & official mpg figures, 6 well judged ratio's is more than enough to do the job.As for dsg gearboxes etc, they are great when new but compared to a conventional auto or manual they are a nightmare once they get past a certain mileage or if the cutomer upgrades the cars performance, I have a Golf GTI in the workshop that is basically a write off because the gearbox repair will come to just under 5k the 650bhp sl55 will cost 2k to rebuild the gearbox
How do you know that these 8 speed boxes will go wrong? Plus, if you want one that doesn't go wrong, why don't you do what the original owner did, buy a new one in warranty.
Great car and the gearbox change was long overdue. I like the comment about the annoying steering wheel. Is it just me who tends to throw up when I see those square or flat bottomed steering wheels even in family cars? A typical example of marketings idiots thinking this is seen as sporty. Audi is the worst. Dear Aston Martin you still have wonderfully round steering wheels in your portfolio. Just use them and throw your Pizza plate into the trashbin.
The wheel is an option (or at least it was on the first cars). It's from the One-77 and I can take it or leave it. I struggle to see the point of differently shaped wheels genreally. The flat-bottomed wheel in the R8 doesn't make it more difficult to drive, but neither does it enhance the experience.
rusti said:
Great car and the gearbox change was long overdue. I like the comment about the annoying steering wheel. Is it just me who tends to throw up when I see those square or flat bottomed steering wheels even in family cars? A typical example of marketings idiots thinking this is seen as sporty. Audi is the worst. Dear Aston Martin you still have wonderfully round steering wheels in your portfolio. Just use them and throw your Pizza plate into the trashbin.
I like the steering wheel. ZX10R NIN said:
6 well judged ratio's is more than enough to do the job.
You're wrong, and here's why.Utilising more gear ratios allows engines to operate at a lower engine speed at all speeds. That reduces fuel consumption and emissions. That is a fact that so-called "downspeeding" engines improves both factors and is why gear indicators in manual cars encourage you to shift early and use the available engine torque at lower speeds.
At the other end of the spectrum, having additional gears means that the engine can spend more time in the optimum region of the power band when accelerating, which leads to faster acceleration times.
All of this is even mentioned in the article. Economy has improved, as has the acceleration statistics.
Your "6 well judged ratios" in the same car cannot compete from either a performance or economy perspective.
zeppelin101 said:
ZX10R NIN said:
6 well judged ratio's is more than enough to do the job.
You're wrong, and here's why.Utilising more gear ratios allows engines to operate at a lower engine speed at all speeds. That reduces fuel consumption and emissions. That is a fact that so-called "downspeeding" engines improves both factors and is why gear indicators in manual cars encourage you to shift early and use the available engine torque at lower speeds.
At the other end of the spectrum, having additional gears means that the engine can spend more time in the optimum region of the power band when accelerating, which leads to faster acceleration times.
All of this is even mentioned in the article. Economy has improved, as has the acceleration statistics.
Your "6 well judged ratios" in the same car cannot compete from either a performance or economy perspective.
I have a 6 speed auto in my car, and the maximum theoretical top speed (in mph) in each gear is
1st - 40
2nd - 60
3rd - 100
4th - 135-140
5th 165-170
6th - 230
Now, it's absolutely awesome having a top gear which is geared that tall, it means high speed cruising is still relaxed, but likewise, I do often want a 7 or even an 8 speed box to close the ratios up a bit, something like this would be absolutely awesome (for economy and spirited driving
1st - 35
2nd - 50
3rd - 85
4th - 110
5th - 130
6th - 155
7th - 180
8th - 230
I can't see why I'd rather choose my current 6 speed box over an 8 speed box with ratios similar to that, it'd be slower and less economical.....but hey....6 is more than "enough".
zeppelin101 said:
You're wrong, and here's why.
Utilising more gear ratios allows engines to operate at a lower engine speed at all speeds. That reduces fuel consumption and emissions. That is a fact that so-called "downspeeding" engines improves both factors and is why gear indicators in manual cars encourage you to shift early and use the available engine torque at lower speeds.
At the other end of the spectrum, having additional gears means that the engine can spend more time in the optimum region of the power band when accelerating, which leads to faster acceleration times.
All of this is even mentioned in the article. Economy has improved, as has the acceleration statistics.
Your "6 well judged ratios" in the same car cannot compete from either a performance or economy perspective.
In an auto, more is probably better. Putting the obvious emissions/economy gains to one side, the larger number of gears should make for superior performance. Especially in diesels with their very narrow performance bands. I think this is a given, as you say. Utilising more gear ratios allows engines to operate at a lower engine speed at all speeds. That reduces fuel consumption and emissions. That is a fact that so-called "downspeeding" engines improves both factors and is why gear indicators in manual cars encourage you to shift early and use the available engine torque at lower speeds.
At the other end of the spectrum, having additional gears means that the engine can spend more time in the optimum region of the power band when accelerating, which leads to faster acceleration times.
All of this is even mentioned in the article. Economy has improved, as has the acceleration statistics.
Your "6 well judged ratios" in the same car cannot compete from either a performance or economy perspective.
However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
DonkeyApple said:
In an auto, more is probably better. Putting the obvious emissions/economy gains to one side, the larger number of gears should make for superior performance. Especially in diesels with their very narrow performance bands. I think this is a given, as you say.
However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
Here's a thought if you enjoy doing that.....why not shift 2 gears at once? It'll happily do that quicker than a 70's Jag would shift one gear, and you get to ride a taller gear for a while However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
Last 3 speed auto I drove (and only, I'll concede) was a BMW 635csi. Great car but f
k me did it cry out for more gears!!!!!!!!!!! The economy was atrocious and it was really slow for the power it had.E65Ross said:
DonkeyApple said:
In an auto, more is probably better. Putting the obvious emissions/economy gains to one side, the larger number of gears should make for superior performance. Especially in diesels with their very narrow performance bands. I think this is a given, as you say.
However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
Here's a thought if you enjoy doing that.....why not shift 2 gears at once? It'll happily do that quicker than a 70's Jag would shift one gear, and you get to ride a taller gear for a while However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
Last 3 speed auto I drove (and only, I'll concede) was a BMW 635csi. Great car but f
k me did it cry out for more gears!!!!!!!!!!! The economy was atrocious and it was really slow for the power it had.Zod said:
E65Ross said:
DonkeyApple said:
In an auto, more is probably better. Putting the obvious emissions/economy gains to one side, the larger number of gears should make for superior performance. Especially in diesels with their very narrow performance bands. I think this is a given, as you say.
However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
Here's a thought if you enjoy doing that.....why not shift 2 gears at once? It'll happily do that quicker than a 70's Jag would shift one gear, and you get to ride a taller gear for a while However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
Last 3 speed auto I drove (and only, I'll concede) was a BMW 635csi. Great car but f
k me did it cry out for more gears!!!!!!!!!!! The economy was atrocious and it was really slow for the power it had.DonkeyApple said:
In an auto, more is probably better. Putting the obvious emissions/economy gains to one side, the larger number of gears should make for superior performance. Especially in diesels with their very narrow performance bands. I think this is a given, as you say.
However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
There is a manual override in boxes like the 8spd which will allow you to go from near enough idle to max engine speed in one gear. There are any number of DCTs that will allow you to do the same and bounce off the limiter at the end of it also.However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
The functionality is there, whether individuals use it or not is another matter.
zeppelin101 said:
DonkeyApple said:
In an auto, more is probably better. Putting the obvious emissions/economy gains to one side, the larger number of gears should make for superior performance. Especially in diesels with their very narrow performance bands. I think this is a given, as you say.
However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
There is a manual override in boxes like the 8spd which will allow you to go from near enough idle to max engine speed in one gear. There are any number of DCTs that will allow you to do the same and bounce off the limiter at the end of it also.However, from a purely 'pleasure' perspective, what extra gears do rob you of is that natural pleasure of climbing up through a long rev range and the feel of that wide change in character as you come up on the cam and peak. There is something immensely satisfying about that process and it is something that you start to lose as you add more gears into the mix. Especially on the road where it is not easy to use all the performance so aural and driving pleasure needs to be retained at lower speeds etc.
At sensible road speeds and with a big meaty engine with a decent power band there is a lot of fun to be had with the old 3 speed Torqueflight box. As an interesting aside, there aren't many cars today which can better the in gear 50-70 performance of the lumbering 70's XJ12.
The functionality is there, whether individuals use it or not is another matter.
DonkeyApple said:
True but it's still, to all intents and purpose, a close ratio box. So you won't get that effect that I'm referring to. It's the wider spread that fewer gears will give you on a road box that can be quite pleasurable with a good petrol engine.
Read my post above. You don't have to use every gear. E65Ross said:
DonkeyApple said:
True but it's still, to all intents and purpose, a close ratio box. So you won't get that effect that I'm referring to. It's the wider spread that fewer gears will give you on a road box that can be quite pleasurable with a good petrol engine.
Read my post above. You don't have to use every gear. skipping a gear doesn't suddenly lengthen the ratio. The observation that I am trying to make is that a 5 speed road box has lovely gaps between gears that with a nice petrol engine can be very enjoyable to move up through. Adding more gears typically leads to shorter ratios and that 'fun' disappears in a trade off for superior performance. Almost everyone will grab that trade but I am merely highlighting that there is a pleasure benefit from having fewer gears in a sports car. DonkeyApple said:
Read my post above. Wouldn't work. skipping a gear doesn't suddenly lengthen the ratio. The observation that I am trying to make is that a 5 speed road box has lovely gaps between gears that with a nice petrol engine can be very enjoyable to move up through. Adding more gears typically leads to shorter ratios and that 'fun' disappears in a trade off for superior performance. Almost everyone will grab that trade but I am merely highlighting that there is a pleasure benefit from having fewer gears in a sports car.
No you didn't, you mentioned an old xj12. skipping a gear doesn't suddenly lengthen the ratio. The observation that I am trying to make is that a 5 speed road box has lovely gaps between gears that with a nice petrol engine can be very enjoyable to move up through. Adding more gears typically leads to shorter ratios and that 'fun' disappears in a trade off for superior performance. Almost everyone will grab that trade but I am merely highlighting that there is a pleasure benefit from having fewer gears in a sports car. Also, what's the difference between riding longer gears in a 4 speed box and then shifting up twice each time in the 8 speed box, letting the engine work down to similar rpm between putting your foot down?
Going from 6k to 3k in an old 4 speeder then going back to 6k is no different from doing exactly the same in the 8 speed box....
E65Ross said:
DonkeyApple said:
Read my post above. Wouldn't work. skipping a gear doesn't suddenly lengthen the ratio. The observation that I am trying to make is that a 5 speed road box has lovely gaps between gears that with a nice petrol engine can be very enjoyable to move up through. Adding more gears typically leads to shorter ratios and that 'fun' disappears in a trade off for superior performance. Almost everyone will grab that trade but I am merely highlighting that there is a pleasure benefit from having fewer gears in a sports car.
No you didn't, you mentioned an old xj12. skipping a gear doesn't suddenly lengthen the ratio. The observation that I am trying to make is that a 5 speed road box has lovely gaps between gears that with a nice petrol engine can be very enjoyable to move up through. Adding more gears typically leads to shorter ratios and that 'fun' disappears in a trade off for superior performance. Almost everyone will grab that trade but I am merely highlighting that there is a pleasure benefit from having fewer gears in a sports car. Also, what's the difference between riding longer gears in a 4 speed box and then shifting up twice each time in the 8 speed box, letting the engine work down to similar rpm between putting your foot down?
Going from 6k to 3k in an old 4 speeder then going back to 6k is no different from doing exactly the same in the 8 speed box....
No, running an engine up through a long gear is not the same as skipping a gear in a close ratio box. The key about this small and not hugely relevant observation is about the length of the ratios. Skipping every alternate gear in a close ratio box is not the same especially as the cam timing etc will have been designed for the closer ratios so as to maximise their benefit.
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