Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
flemke said:
mikey k said:
The M383T enginer McLaren is using is very good IME.
I've done 14k miles in my 650 and drive LT's, 570S, 570GT and 540. All of which use a variation of that engine.
It also goes in to the P1, 720S and HS.
I am amazed McLaren manage to produce so many cars each with such different characters all from the same engine - love it!
I'm not saying that it is bad for what it is, but what it is is a turbocharged engine. It has some turbo-lag (even noticeable in the P1 with its electric "torque-fill") and the engine note is not that pleasing. I've done 14k miles in my 650 and drive LT's, 570S, 570GT and 540. All of which use a variation of that engine.
It also goes in to the P1, 720S and HS.
I am amazed McLaren manage to produce so many cars each with such different characters all from the same engine - love it!
Still like a NA V12 though
'Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday' definitely isn't working in their favor.
At least one of the US dealers organizes an F1 viewing party in their showroom the day of the race. I've not attended, but have to imagine it's not exactly a celebratory affair. I do admire them for keeping it going in the face of continued adversity.
>8^)
ER
At least one of the US dealers organizes an F1 viewing party in their showroom the day of the race. I've not attended, but have to imagine it's not exactly a celebratory affair. I do admire them for keeping it going in the face of continued adversity.
>8^)
ER
Edited by Peloton25 on Thursday 13th April 00:03
VladD said:
flemke said:
Correct. I had not bought it myself, but shall we say it was bought with my money but without my knowledge and eventually it came into my hands. I tried it, didn't like it, and immediately put it up for sale. Nice engine, but the car overall was too juvenile.
Hi Flemke, I'm intrigued by the first part of that reply, but that's your personal business, so I'll just ask you to kindly expand on the second part. Can you explain what you mean by "juvenile" for me? If you're taking about aesthetics, did you like it mechanically?I wasn't much interested in the experience at the time and it made little impression on me. The only mechanical things that I recall are that I didn't care for the steering, as is typical in Lambos and many other VAG products the brakes were over-servo'd, the driving position was mediocre and the car was too wide. Layout of the switch-gear seemed poor as well.
Storer said:
I would be interested to hear the thoughts of Flemke and other McLaren owners regarding the dire performance of the Formula 1 cars/team, and the effect it is having on the McLaren 'brand'?
It's not good, is it? Fortunately the McLaren racing history is so deep and broad that the "brand" can withstand a fallow period such as what they are now in. Has any other racing team won:- numerous Formula One world championships,
- numerous Can-Am championships,
- Le Mans, and
- Indy?
If the road cars were akin to modern Lambos - nice but nothing special - the brand would be more reliant on racing success. Because the modern McLaren road cars have been at the technological cutting edge, however, they are adding lustre to the brand during a period when the racing team is underperforming.
There are important changes in the wind for Formula One - the PU regulations are due for a major revamp in 2020, there is a real possibility of a cost cap, and Liberty Media intend to improve the show substantially and expand its US element. Even if the next 3 years of racing are as bad as the last 2 1/2 have been (and I do not expect that to happen), I am not seriously worried about the future of McLaren Racing.
flemke said:
Storer said:
I would be interested to hear the thoughts of Flemke and other McLaren owners regarding the dire performance of the Formula 1 cars/team, and the effect it is having on the McLaren 'brand'?
It's not good, is it? Fortunately the McLaren racing history is so deep and broad that the "brand" can withstand a fallow period such as what they are now in. Has any other racing team won:- numerous Formula One world championships,
- numerous Can-Am championships,
- Le Mans, and
- Indy?
If the road cars were akin to modern Lambos - nice but nothing special - the brand would be more reliant on racing success. Because the modern McLaren road cars have been at the technological cutting edge, however, they are adding lustre to the brand during a period when the racing team is underperforming.
There are important changes in the wind for Formula One - the PU regulations are due for a major revamp in 2020, there is a real possibility of a cost cap, and Liberty Media intend to improve the show substantially and expand its US element. Even if the next 3 years of racing are as bad as the last 2 1/2 have been (and I do not expect that to happen), I am not seriously worried about the future of McLaren Racing.
I think people appreciate that the last 5mph or 0.5 of a second on the F1 track has zero bearing on the company's manufacturing of road cars. Especially when Honda is publicly copping the majority of the blame.
If every F1 team built road cars as well, then the hierarchy on track might cast downwards onto a perceived hierarchy on the road, but with only 2 teams building road cars, and McLaren being arguably superior at that job, I don't think it has much of an impact on the brand.
If positions were reversed and Ferrari was currently fighting to be 14th on the grid, the Ferrari brand would still be what it is (for good and bad).
If every F1 team built road cars as well, then the hierarchy on track might cast downwards onto a perceived hierarchy on the road, but with only 2 teams building road cars, and McLaren being arguably superior at that job, I don't think it has much of an impact on the brand.
If positions were reversed and Ferrari was currently fighting to be 14th on the grid, the Ferrari brand would still be what it is (for good and bad).
SpeckledJim said:
I think people appreciate that the last 5mph or 0.5 of a second on the F1 track has zero bearing on the company's manufacturing of road cars. Especially when Honda is publicly copping the majority of the blame.
If every F1 team built road cars as well, then the hierarchy on track might cast downwards onto a perceived hierarchy on the road, but with only 2 teams building road cars, and McLaren being arguably superior at that job, I don't think it has much of an impact on the brand.
If positions were reversed and Ferrari was currently fighting to be 14th on the grid, the Ferrari brand would still be what it is (for good and bad).
2 teams?If every F1 team built road cars as well, then the hierarchy on track might cast downwards onto a perceived hierarchy on the road, but with only 2 teams building road cars, and McLaren being arguably superior at that job, I don't think it has much of an impact on the brand.
If positions were reversed and Ferrari was currently fighting to be 14th on the grid, the Ferrari brand would still be what it is (for good and bad).
McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault
and arguably Honda,
and Red Bull have one coming too!
Honda were in F1 at the same time that McLaren had Mercedes engines. Honda pulled out, Brawn stuck a Merc engine in it, won the championship and then a year later were bought out by Mercedes who have recently been the team to beat. McLaren on the other hand had a Mercedes engine and now have a Honda engine and are no longer really in the running to win a race.
So in summary, the team that were Honda are now Mercedes and the team that was practically the Mercedes work team are now Honda.
So in summary, the team that were Honda are now Mercedes and the team that was practically the Mercedes work team are now Honda.
VladD said:
Honda were in F1 at the same time that McLaren had Mercedes engines. Honda pulled out, Brawn stuck a Merc engine in it, won the championship and then a year later were bought out by Mercedes who have recently been the team to beat. McLaren on the other hand had a Mercedes engine and now have a Honda engine and are no longer really in the running to win a race.
So in summary, the team that were Honda are now Mercedes and the team that was practically the Mercedes work team are now Honda.
Honda at that time was just a re-badged version of the BAR team which evolved from Tyrrell, Unlike McLaren, their 'Honda' team was just a marketing front using the factory Honda engines.So in summary, the team that were Honda are now Mercedes and the team that was practically the Mercedes work team are now Honda.
The Surveyor said:
VladD said:
Honda were in F1 at the same time that McLaren had Mercedes engines. Honda pulled out, Brawn stuck a Merc engine in it, won the championship and then a year later were bought out by Mercedes who have recently been the team to beat. McLaren on the other hand had a Mercedes engine and now have a Honda engine and are no longer really in the running to win a race.
So in summary, the team that were Honda are now Mercedes and the team that was practically the Mercedes work team are now Honda.
Honda at that time was just a re-badged version of the BAR team which evolved from Tyrrell, Unlike McLaren, their 'Honda' team was just a marketing front using the factory Honda engines.So in summary, the team that were Honda are now Mercedes and the team that was practically the Mercedes work team are now Honda.
VladD said:
So a bit Like Mercedes now.
Indeed, same as Redbull (formerly Stewart, then Jaguar), and Force India (formerly Jordan then Spyker), and Renault (formerly Toleman, Benetton, then Lotus F1). Only McLaren, Ferrari and Williams have a clean blood line, with only Ferrari having clean factory engine and chassis history.Joe911 said:
SpeckledJim said:
I think people appreciate that the last 5mph or 0.5 of a second on the F1 track has zero bearing on the company's manufacturing of road cars. Especially when Honda is publicly copping the majority of the blame.
If every F1 team built road cars as well, then the hierarchy on track might cast downwards onto a perceived hierarchy on the road, but with only 2 teams building road cars, and McLaren being arguably superior at that job, I don't think it has much of an impact on the brand.
If positions were reversed and Ferrari was currently fighting to be 14th on the grid, the Ferrari brand would still be what it is (for good and bad).
2 teams?If every F1 team built road cars as well, then the hierarchy on track might cast downwards onto a perceived hierarchy on the road, but with only 2 teams building road cars, and McLaren being arguably superior at that job, I don't think it has much of an impact on the brand.
If positions were reversed and Ferrari was currently fighting to be 14th on the grid, the Ferrari brand would still be what it is (for good and bad).
McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault
and arguably Honda,
and Red Bull have one coming too!
And arguably Mercedes make supercars. Ish.
I'll go and have a sit.
To change the subject completely, did you ever imagine a perfect blue for your car? It was funny, as reading through all the previous threads I couldn't understand how one could feel a particular way about something, which on the surface at least, struck me as simple.
However, thinking about it, I have spent more time than I care to mention trying to decide on something that I never thought would pose an issue. The fact that I am as thick as two short planks, stuck together with stupid glue, perhaps doesn't help my lack of appreciation for aesthetics. It’s not a question of not being able to decide on options, it’s a question of not being able to even imagine something that would come close.
I only ask as I have spent years trying to determine a wheel design that perfectly complements an NSX. I have settled on a set for the moment as the lesser of all the available evils, but I still feel unsatisfied. It’s a bit of a losing battle anyways as the car I have is less than ideal aesthetically, and very monochromatic. However, my lack of understanding on general good design, and, as a result, my inability to choose a wheel that satisfies, means I am left with a "brain itch" every time I see the car.
Oddly enough, I have found the OEM 17" wheels and the original NA1 type-r wheels are the closest, but having larger brakes on my own car, requires an 18" wheel.
However, thinking about it, I have spent more time than I care to mention trying to decide on something that I never thought would pose an issue. The fact that I am as thick as two short planks, stuck together with stupid glue, perhaps doesn't help my lack of appreciation for aesthetics. It’s not a question of not being able to decide on options, it’s a question of not being able to even imagine something that would come close.
I only ask as I have spent years trying to determine a wheel design that perfectly complements an NSX. I have settled on a set for the moment as the lesser of all the available evils, but I still feel unsatisfied. It’s a bit of a losing battle anyways as the car I have is less than ideal aesthetically, and very monochromatic. However, my lack of understanding on general good design, and, as a result, my inability to choose a wheel that satisfies, means I am left with a "brain itch" every time I see the car.
Oddly enough, I have found the OEM 17" wheels and the original NA1 type-r wheels are the closest, but having larger brakes on my own car, requires an 18" wheel.
Edited by hkz286 on Friday 28th April 13:03
hkz286 said:
However, my lack of understanding on general good design...
Subjective. There are many general design rules that satisfy the majority, but it cannot be quantified, so there is no right or wrong, just a majority opinion. Your ability to pick what you like is embedded in your opinion of what you see, not what somebody else tells you looks good, so choose what you like! 
McAndy said:
hkz286 said:
However, my lack of understanding on general good design...
Subjective. There are many general design rules that satisfy the majority, but it cannot be quantified, so there is no right or wrong, just a majority opinion. Your ability to pick what you like is embedded in your opinion of what you see, not what somebody else tells you looks good, so choose what you like! Have you read the history of Flemke's colour choice? Bloody hell, I never knew there were so many reasons for something to be wrong! But then what do I know, I liked it in the paler blue with the silver/gold wheels...
of course your own desires should come first. If it makes you happy, then whether its technically right or not shouldnt enter into it. Trouble is, I have tried to pick something that I like, but as of yet, have zero ideas that have left me satisfied. Which lead me to believe that there was something I was missing. There have been a few things so far which weren't obvious until it was spelled out in words of one syllable. The font debacle springs to mind as well as the aforementioned colour choice
I wasn't exactly asking for advice as such, I was just asking if he settled on theoretical colour that would suit the car better and drawing a relationship between that and my much smaller, unimportant indecision
hkz286 said:
To change the subject completely, did you ever imagine a perfect blue for your car? It was funny, as reading through all the previous threads I couldn't understand how one could feel a particular way about something, which on the surface at least, struck me as simple.
However, thinking about it, I have spent more time than I care to mention trying to decide on something that I never thought would pose an issue. The fact that I am as thick as two short planks, stuck together with stupid glue, perhaps doesn't help my lack of appreciation for aesthetics. It’s not a question of not being able to decide on options, it’s a question of not being able to even imagine something that would come close.
I only ask as I have spent years trying to determine a wheel design that perfectly complements an NSX. I have settled on a set for the moment as the lesser of all the available evils, but I still feel unsatisfied. It’s a bit of a losing battle anyways as the car I have is less than ideal aesthetically, and very monochromatic. However, my lack of understanding on general good design, and, as a result, my inability to choose a wheel that satisfies, means I am left with a "brain itch" every time I see the car.
Oddly enough, I have found the OEM 17" wheels and the original NA1 type-r wheels are the closest, but having larger brakes on my own car, requires an 18" wheel.
Wrt colours, or I should say car paint, yes indeed. I imagined more than one ideal blue, but the problem was that, as far as I could tell, it did not exist in car paint. It might have existed in a fabric dye, or in artist's oil paint, or in the light spectrum, or even on a laptop screen, but it seemed to be unobtainable in car paint. Even if I could have got it in car paint, it might have been unobtainable in a car paint that could legally be sprayed on a car in the EU. Some years ago, paints based on volatiles were banned, replaced by water-based paints that, IMO, produce inferior colour.However, thinking about it, I have spent more time than I care to mention trying to decide on something that I never thought would pose an issue. The fact that I am as thick as two short planks, stuck together with stupid glue, perhaps doesn't help my lack of appreciation for aesthetics. It’s not a question of not being able to decide on options, it’s a question of not being able to even imagine something that would come close.
I only ask as I have spent years trying to determine a wheel design that perfectly complements an NSX. I have settled on a set for the moment as the lesser of all the available evils, but I still feel unsatisfied. It’s a bit of a losing battle anyways as the car I have is less than ideal aesthetically, and very monochromatic. However, my lack of understanding on general good design, and, as a result, my inability to choose a wheel that satisfies, means I am left with a "brain itch" every time I see the car.
Oddly enough, I have found the OEM 17" wheels and the original NA1 type-r wheels are the closest, but having larger brakes on my own car, requires an 18" wheel.
And even if I could have got that far, the next, equally big, problem was that a colour that looks a certain way in one kind of light can look very different in another kind of light. When I chose the first blue for my car, in 2002, it was in about March. We were at the old McLaren road cars facility in Woking. We were indoors because it was cold outside and I kind-of needed a table to work on. Nonetheless I was working under a big skylight and thought that the amount of natural light illuminating the paint samples was sufficient to be representative of how the colours would look on the car in the real world. How wrong I was! I have since found that, of the entire paint spectrum, blues are probably the most light sensitive.
Wrt wheels on an NSX, on my Gen I Type-R, I put the standard wheels that came on the Gen II. I think they suit the car pretty well.
McAndy said:
hkz286 said:
However, my lack of understanding on general good design...
Subjective. There are many general design rules that satisfy the majority, but it cannot be quantified, so there is no right or wrong, just a majority opinion. Your ability to pick what you like is embedded in your opinion of what you see, not what somebody else tells you looks good, so choose what you like! There is a difference between personal taste, which by definition is in the eye of the beholder, and judgment, which all eyes and brains do not possess to the same degree. Just because something cannot be quantified does not mean that it cannot be judged.
AlmostUseful said:
McAndy said:
hkz286 said:
However, my lack of understanding on general good design...
Subjective. There are many general design rules that satisfy the majority, but it cannot be quantified, so there is no right or wrong, just a majority opinion. Your ability to pick what you like is embedded in your opinion of what you see, not what somebody else tells you looks good, so choose what you like! 
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