Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
flemke said:
Well, in 2019-20 we're going to have roughly 1,000 "hypercars" coming to the market: Chiron, Aston Bull, BP23 and Merc Project One. That is in excess of $2b of totally unnecessary hardware, all of which will be impractical and some of which will be borderline unusable. Will the market absorb all that and indeed will there be people perpared to pay a premium? I don't think it's sure thing by any means.
I don't think many things are 'sure things' to be fair, but I'm quite the optimist (especially where money belonging to others is concerned, maybe I should be a banker...) so on that basis I'm not concerned about you losing any money. You can sleep easy by dark blue car driving friend, I think you'll be ok. But then again, I wasn't old enough in the 90's to remember the XJ220 debacle or the original F1 sales struggles... I only remember being I awe of them even existing.
AlmostUseful said:
flemke said:
Well, in 2019-20 we're going to have roughly 1,000 "hypercars" coming to the market: Chiron, Aston Bull, BP23 and Merc Project One. That is in excess of $2b of totally unnecessary hardware, all of which will be impractical and some of which will be borderline unusable. Will the market absorb all that and indeed will there be people perpared to pay a premium? I don't think it's sure thing by any means.
I don't think many things are 'sure things' to be fair, but I'm quite the optimist (especially where money belonging to others is concerned, maybe I should be a banker...) so on that basis I'm not concerned about you losing any money. You can sleep easy by dark blue car driving friend, I think you'll be ok. But then again, I wasn't old enough in the 90's to remember the XJ220 debacle or the original F1 sales struggles... I only remember being I awe of them even existing.
A number of factors have underlain the big upward move in collectible car values in the last few years. I am not saying that all those factors will do a 180 in the next few years, but it is unlikely that they all will persist. Even if they do persist, they will bump up against a growing anti-car, anti-speed mentality, not to mention an anti-conspicuous consumption/anti-wealth agenda. When the dust settles, I expect only truly exceptional cars to continue to increase in value.
Church of Noise said:
After seeing a McLaren M6 race at Spa this weekend, I was wondering: did you ever drive a McLaren M6 GT road car, and would you consider owning one (or indeed do you)?
No, I have not driven one. There is some dispute about how many genuine, original cars exist, but it is no more than four, and I think the consensus is three.About a dozen years ago I spoke briefly with McLaren about commissioning them to build me a replica of the original. They were willing to do it, but I was not entirely convinced that it would be a wise thing to do and thus we never pursued it.
flemke said:
Not quite. I said that I would sell the P1 and 675LT owing to factory representations (misrepresentations, actually) specific to those two models. I made that clear to the factory.
Subsequently they were kind enough to offer me an HS. I could have declined, but I did not have a reason to decline and in fact I liked the car.
Re the BP23, again they were kind enough to offer me a car, for which I have paid the deposits, delivery in 3 years.
I never said that I would sell all my McLarens. I love my F1 and for that reason, as well as for its investment prospects, I intend not to sell it for long time, if ever.
Thanks for the answer, my apologies for getting it wrong. The F1 is something else though. Subsequently they were kind enough to offer me an HS. I could have declined, but I did not have a reason to decline and in fact I liked the car.
Re the BP23, again they were kind enough to offer me a car, for which I have paid the deposits, delivery in 3 years.
I never said that I would sell all my McLarens. I love my F1 and for that reason, as well as for its investment prospects, I intend not to sell it for long time, if ever.
flemke said:
I could have declined, but I did not have a reason to decline
I love this 
flemke said:
I never said that I would sell all my McLarens. I love my F1 and for that reason, as well as for its investment prospects, I intend not to sell it for long time, if ever.
Were the situation to arise, would you purchase another F1? cc8s said:
flemke said:
I could have declined, but I did not have a reason to decline
I love this flemke said:
I never said that I would sell all my McLarens. I love my F1 and for that reason, as well as for its investment prospects, I intend not to sell it for long time, if ever.
Were the situation to arise, would you purchase another F1? flemke said:
Trees don't grow to the sky.
A number of factors have underlain the big upward move in collectible car values in the last few years. I am not saying that all those factors will do a 180 in the next few years, but it is unlikely that they all will persist. Even if they do persist, they will bump up against a growing anti-car, anti-speed mentality, not to mention an anti-conspicuous consumption/anti-wealth agenda. When the dust settles, I expect only truly exceptional cars to continue to increase in value.
Do you think there are any cars under say £200k which fall into the category of "truly exceptional - could continue to increase"? NSX-R, Rocket, some porsches, that sort of thing, or are you generally referring to cars which are used by the wealthy for status; F1, classic Ferrari etc. A number of factors have underlain the big upward move in collectible car values in the last few years. I am not saying that all those factors will do a 180 in the next few years, but it is unlikely that they all will persist. Even if they do persist, they will bump up against a growing anti-car, anti-speed mentality, not to mention an anti-conspicuous consumption/anti-wealth agenda. When the dust settles, I expect only truly exceptional cars to continue to increase in value.
Crockefeller said:
flemke said:
Trees don't grow to the sky.
A number of factors have underlain the big upward move in collectible car values in the last few years. I am not saying that all those factors will do a 180 in the next few years, but it is unlikely that they all will persist. Even if they do persist, they will bump up against a growing anti-car, anti-speed mentality, not to mention an anti-conspicuous consumption/anti-wealth agenda. When the dust settles, I expect only truly exceptional cars to continue to increase in value.
Do you think there are any cars under say £200k which fall into the category of "truly exceptional - could continue to increase"? NSX-R, Rocket, some porsches, that sort of thing, or are you generally referring to cars which are used by the wealthy for status; F1, classic Ferrari etc. A number of factors have underlain the big upward move in collectible car values in the last few years. I am not saying that all those factors will do a 180 in the next few years, but it is unlikely that they all will persist. Even if they do persist, they will bump up against a growing anti-car, anti-speed mentality, not to mention an anti-conspicuous consumption/anti-wealth agenda. When the dust settles, I expect only truly exceptional cars to continue to increase in value.
The ones that may qualify, I agree, are the Rocket and the NSX Type-R. I am aware of no Porsche that can be got for that money that would fit the criteria.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
flemke said:
I am aware of no Porsche that can be got for that money that would fit the criteria.
996 GT3 Cupisaldiri said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
flemke said:
I am aware of no Porsche that can be got for that money that would fit the criteria.
996 GT3 Cupflemke said:
Racing cars? I am very familiar with them. Why do you think they would stand out as investments?
Because although they've gone up in value it's nothing like the heady heights of the much more numerous road cars such as the 996GT3rs, 964rs, 993rs etc etcPlus they have some advantages that make them usable for a race car-basic drivetrain, large support network and crucially (for me) an incredibly close relationship to the road cars.
Ok, they're never going to be first choice to drive down to the 'ring in but if you get one Road registered the number of things you'd need to change to make it semi habitable on the road isn't massive.
It hasn't stopped the 964/993 cups shooting up in value in recent years either.
I also think a standard 997GT3 stands out as good business at £80k too.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
isaldiri said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
flemke said:
I am aware of no Porsche that can be got for that money that would fit the criteria.
996 GT3 Cupflemke said:
Racing cars? I am very familiar with them. Why do you think they would stand out as investments?
Because although they've gone up in value it's nothing like the heady heights of the much more numerous road cars such as the 996GT3rs, 964rs, 993rs etc etcPlus they have some advantages that make them usable for a race car-basic drivetrain, large support network and crucially (for me) an incredibly close relationship to the road cars.
Ok, they're never going to be first choice to drive down to the 'ring in but if you get one Road registered the number of things you'd need to change to make it semi habitable on the road isn't massive.
It hasn't stopped the 964/993 cups shooting up in value in recent years either.
I also think a standard 997GT3 stands out as good business at £80k too.
For one thing, Porsche made a lot of them. Admittedly a meaningful number of chassis have been destroyed, but the production numbers were in the many hundreds.
For another, they aren't exactly good road cars. As it happens, I have driven the Cup (racing) car on the public roads a wee bit and, in racing form, it is utterly inappropriate for that purpose. One could change the springs, suspension settings, etc - that would be simple. As with most racing cars, however, there is a lot of driveline shunt. Also, you'd have to do something about the engine mapping, which is optimised for the top of the rev range and is very easy to stall below say 2000 rpm. Yes, you could turn one into a road car, but I'm not sure why you'd want to do that. Apart from its lacking the welded cage, I think you'd be better off stripping out a standard 996 GT3 road car.
The earlier Cup cars have gone up in value some, but I think that is more to do with the fact that the 964RS and 993RS Clubsport values have gone ballistic, which has been part of the "last of the air-cooled" hagiography.
Wrt the standard 997GT3 road car, there are just too many of them for the market to squeeze. I'm not saying that they could not appreciate the way that the E-Type has appreciated despite being an old tub of crap that was built in big numbers, but I have difficulty envisaging anything special for the 997GT3.
flemke said:
If you mean cars that are under £200k now, I would say not many, because, although there are some great new cars that can be bought for that money, in order to justify their development expense they will have been produced in large-ish numbers, which obviously dampens potential appreciation.
The ones that may qualify, I agree, are the Rocket and the NSX Type-R.
Surely the NSX Type S & S Zero also qualify here, as their numbers are even smaller than the Type R?The ones that may qualify, I agree, are the Rocket and the NSX Type-R.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I think changing the engine map would be intrinsic in not only adding to drive-ability but probably more importantly, the life of the engine.
It's an interesting concept however. I think you might need to improve steering lock too
Cup cars have been turned into rally cars - getting a road car is do-able too, but not necessarily sensible - other than bragging rights.It's an interesting concept however. I think you might need to improve steering lock too
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I think changing the engine map would be intrinsic in not only adding to drive-ability but probably more importantly, the life of the engine.
It's an interesting concept however. I think you might need to improve steering lock too
I am sure the Cup car has the same rack as the road car, with just narrower lock stops to allow for the wider tyres and increased camber.It's an interesting concept however. I think you might need to improve steering lock too
Engine life. I don't know what is the interplay between mapping and engine life. On the racing car, the factory recommended rebuild schedule is 75 hours, IIRC, but of course approx half those hours will have been at full throttle, whereas on a road car it's more like 1-2% at full throttle (except for Joe911, for whom it is more like 90-95%).
dobly said:
flemke said:
If you mean cars that are under £200k now, I would say not many, because, although there are some great new cars that can be bought for that money, in order to justify their development expense they will have been produced in large-ish numbers, which obviously dampens potential appreciation.
The ones that may qualify, I agree, are the Rocket and the NSX Type-R.
Surely the NSX Type S & S Zero also qualify here, as their numbers are even smaller than the Type R?The ones that may qualify, I agree, are the Rocket and the NSX Type-R.
the type-s was a slightly more refined type-r however it came with the 3.2 and 6 speed gearbox in the pre-facelift (pop up headlights) NA2.
the zero was a stripped out version of the type s (50kg less than the type s)
No air conditioning or audio wiring, different suspension (not quite type-r), Carbon-fiber Recaro seats (slightly different to type-r), No cruise control, stereo, power door locks, airbags, air conditioning, traction control, power steering, fog lights or navigation system. Lightweight lead-acid battery and halved the thickness of the partition glass between engine bay and cabin.
So basically a track biased version of the NA2 (3.2/6 speed) until the NSX-R came out with the non-pop-up headlights.
To be honest type-r / nsx-r details are fairly difficult to nail down 100% as even the Japanese service manuals / parts catalogue don't list everything that's different. You could build a more capable regular nsx than the equivalent nsx type r/nsx-r , but you couldn't build a nsx type r/nsx-r from a regular nsx.
I think the NSX type-s zero would be my dream NSX (3.2/6speed but with pop up lights). Considering the price of any NSX with a suffix are orders of magnitude larger than a standard nsx , I have about as much chance at buying a McLaren F1 :P
the zero was a stripped out version of the type s (50kg less than the type s)
No air conditioning or audio wiring, different suspension (not quite type-r), Carbon-fiber Recaro seats (slightly different to type-r), No cruise control, stereo, power door locks, airbags, air conditioning, traction control, power steering, fog lights or navigation system. Lightweight lead-acid battery and halved the thickness of the partition glass between engine bay and cabin.
So basically a track biased version of the NA2 (3.2/6 speed) until the NSX-R came out with the non-pop-up headlights.
To be honest type-r / nsx-r details are fairly difficult to nail down 100% as even the Japanese service manuals / parts catalogue don't list everything that's different. You could build a more capable regular nsx than the equivalent nsx type r/nsx-r , but you couldn't build a nsx type r/nsx-r from a regular nsx.
I think the NSX type-s zero would be my dream NSX (3.2/6speed but with pop up lights). Considering the price of any NSX with a suffix are orders of magnitude larger than a standard nsx , I have about as much chance at buying a McLaren F1 :P
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