Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[Rich_W]

thegreenhell said:

It is reported that the Brunei collection has a GTR painted in the same livery, as RD wouldn't sell them the actual race winner.

Yup.





$20M+ (£15M) is the reserve price for the HDF car? (Love that the former owner was a "socialist" from Venezuela FFS!)

Over the top surely!

Edited by Rich_W on Saturday 23 June 17:51

[flemke]

Rich_W said:

thegreenhell said:

It is reported that the Brunei collection has a GTR painted in the same livery, as RD wouldn't sell them the actual race winner.

Yup.





$20M+ (£15M) is the reserve price for the HDF car? (Love that the former owner was a "socialist" from Venezuela FFS!)

Over the top surely!

It's the market.
It's public information that a 250GTO sold for $70m this year, and I have it on good authority that two other GTOs have recently sold for more than that.
Look at the prices being paid for art work. Fair or unfair, there are now a heck of a lot of people in the world with more money than they could ever need, and no apparent inclination to give the excess to charity.

[flemke]

GarageQueen said:

flemke said:

Until about three years ago, when McLaren and BMW severed their relationship re the F1, there were authorised service centres in California, New Jersey, and near Frankfurt. Those have now ceased operating as service centres.
McLaren now have one authorised service centre, at McLaren Cars of Philadelphia. Beyond that, most F1 owners either send their cars to Woking, or a McLaren technician will travel to them. A couple of days ago the top F1 technician returned to the UK after a two or three week stay in the US, visiting and servicing a number of customers' cars around the country.

that’s interesting....but I do wonder how cars get serviced at your home, surely the visiting technician needs access to a lift and tools to do things like oil changes and clutch replacement?

I'll find out.

[Rich_W]

flemke said:

It's the market.
It's public information that a 250GTO sold for $70m this year, and I have it on good authority that two other GTOs have recently sold for more than that.
Look at the prices being paid for art work. Fair or unfair, there are now a heck of a lot of people in the world with more money than they could ever need, and no apparent inclination to give the excess to charity.

Their money their choice.

I thought Road cars had "settled" in the £10-12 area. Road converted GTRs 1 or so behind.

AFAIK None of the actual LMs have been sold? (Erik?)

Will they ever reach a peak? Surely anyone that wants one has already got one? (Bar the odd new Euromillions winner who wants one)

https://www.slashgear.com/epic-1962-ferrari-250-gt...



ex Phil Hill!

Positive bargain at $45M

Much as I adore the F1, I can see the appeal of a 250GTO. I have no idea, but guess there's significantly less GTOs than F1 in existence? Hence the difference in value

[SydneyBridge]

36 GTO's produced and 106 F1's inc prototypes and racecars

[flemke]

Rich_W said:

flemke said:

It's the market.
It's public information that a 250GTO sold for $70m this year, and I have it on good authority that two other GTOs have recently sold for more than that.
Look at the prices being paid for art work. Fair or unfair, there are now a heck of a lot of people in the world with more money than they could ever need, and no apparent inclination to give the excess to charity.

Their money their choice.

I thought Road cars had "settled" in the £10-12 area. Road converted GTRs 1 or so behind.

AFAIK None of the actual LMs have been sold? (Erik?)

Will they ever reach a peak? Surely anyone that wants one has already got one? (Bar the odd new Euromillions winner who wants one)

https://www.slashgear.com/epic-1962-ferrari-250-gt...



ex Phil Hill!

Positive bargain at $45M

Much as I adore the F1, I can see the appeal of a 250GTO. I have no idea, but guess there's significantly less GTOs than F1 in existence? Hence the difference in value

I'm talking my own book, but I can assure you that the market is higher now. Also, bear in mind that the market for this kind of car (F1 or GTO) is almost always in dollars, and the post-Brexit sterling weakness has pushed up the value in sterling by a greater % than in dollars.
Yes, I think the difference in build numbers is a meaningful factor in the difference in market value. Of the 106 F1s originally built, four have been destroyed and two more were crashed, "written off" and are inoperable (although I'd guess that the chassis could be the basis for rebuilds).
For the 100 cars that should be functional, a number of owners have more than one. The number of different owners is, I believe, slightly under 90.
There are definitely more than 90 people in the world who want one. I am acquainted with someone who for the last two months has been trying to find one to buy, and he has been struggling. The orange one with the LM engine was advertised for sale for only about a week before someone came in and bid for it. As I wrote above, the price in $ started with a "2", and the second digit was not a "0".
There are just a whole lot of people in the world with massive amounts of disposable wealth and, if you're not going to give it away (at least not yet), what are you going to do with it?

Eta: of the five customer LMs, three have stayed in Bahrain, one has been owned by three different people, and I think that the fifth, which was originally bought from the factory by a Japanese collector, may have changed hands a year or so ago. In addition to Erik, PHer hurstg01 would know.

Edited by flemke on Monday 25th June 06:20

[isaldiri]

The 3 LMs were in Brunei I thought not Bahrain? Or have I been horribly mistaken all these years....

[SHutchinson]

flemke said:

GarageQueen said:

flemke said:

Until about three years ago, when McLaren and BMW severed their relationship re the F1, there were authorised service centres in California, New Jersey, and near Frankfurt. Those have now ceased operating as service centres.
McLaren now have one authorised service centre, at McLaren Cars of Philadelphia. Beyond that, most F1 owners either send their cars to Woking, or a McLaren technician will travel to them. A couple of days ago the top F1 technician returned to the UK after a two or three week stay in the US, visiting and servicing a number of customers' cars around the country.

that’s interesting....but I do wonder how cars get serviced at your home, surely the visiting technician needs access to a lift and tools to do things like oil changes and clutch replacement?

I'll find out.

One of the owners that he visited is Jay Leno. I have it on good authority that Jay owns at least a fine set of Halfords axle stands and a couple of trolley jacks.

[F1GTRUeno]

isaldiri said:

The 3 LMs were in Brunei I thought not Bahrain? Or have I been horribly mistaken all these years....

Yep, still in Brunei. Two black ones and an orange one. Must've been a typo.

[flemke]

F1GTRUeno said:

isaldiri said:

The 3 LMs were in Brunei I thought not Bahrain? Or have I been horribly mistaken all these years....

Yep, still in Brunei. Two black ones and an orange one. Must've been a typo.

You both are of course quite right. About half the time that I mean to write "Brunei" I wrongly write "Bahrain" - the similarity being two places that start with "B" that I do not want to visit.

[Rich_W]

flemke said:

. I am acquainted with someone who for the last two months has been trying to find one to buy, and he has been struggling. The orange one with the LM engine was advertised for sale for only about a week before someone came in and bid for it. As I wrote above, the price in $ started with a "2", and the second digit was not a "0".

Clearly some owners will never sell and plan to pass it to family in due course (who potentially would sell anyway ) But I'm surprised that other cars can't be liberated if sensible offers came in.

Do you think your acquaintance will be making a bid for the HDF car?

flemke said:

. Eta: of the five customer LMs, three have stayed in Bahrain, one has been owned by three different people, and I think that the fifth, which was originally bought from the factory by a Japanese collector, may have changed hands a year or so ago. In addition to Erik, PHer hurstg01 would know.

It surprises me that with all the uber wealthy out there, no one has made a daft offer to the Sultan for his cars. He has sold the odd car here and there. #005 came back to the UK a couple years back



And I believe there were "financial irregularities" out there a few years back, so you'd think if someone could broker a $30M, even $40M offer for a LM he'd be interested. So far as I know he hardly (possibly never) drives 99.99% of the cars he owns. They are just ridiculous displays of wealth (bit chav! )



Chassis #044 was sold Last year at auction for $15,6M (inc fees) Single owner from new which helped as well. Which is where I estimated values from

flemke said:

For the 100 cars that should be functional, a number of owners have more than one. The number of different owners is, I believe, slightly under 90.

I've been Googleing

Erik... other site said:

16R has joined XP3, 053, 25R (when MSO finishes it) and quite likely 56XPGT as well in a Swiss collection.

5! Fricking FIVE!

Apparently McLaren are looking to sell their cars off since Ron left! Not sure I approve of a company losing its heritage. Saying that I gather GM sold XP3 to raise money for his company.

Edited by Rich_W on Monday 25th June 17:28

[flemke]

Rich_W said:

Clearly some owners will never sell and plan to pass it to family in due course (who potentially would sell anyway ) But I'm surprised that other cars can't be liberated if sensible offers came in.

Do you think your acquaintance will be making a bid for the HDF car?

In my experience with different kinds of markets, on the way up (moreso than down) prices move in steps. A new high will be reached, that will get the attention of owners and some of them will ring the register. Once that group has been flushed out, the market commences a rise until there is a new level that flushes out sellers.
Quite a few of the folks who bought F1s in early to mid-'00s, when the cars were below say a million and a half quid, bought them because they were car lovers. They obviously were financially well-off, but they did not have inexhaustible wealth. When the value got up to £5m and above, the cars represented a disproportionate amount of their total wealth and it was prudent for some of them to sell for that reason.
We have now run out of most of those people. Not all, but many/most of the current owners are massively wealthy, and they have no economic need to make a sale. If the value were to go down to zero it would have no detectable effect on their lives. Therefore so long as they like the car, or the idea of having the car, they will remain holders.

My acquaintance says that he prefers cars without the HDK. The orange car was already under offer when I told him about it, so that was always going to be something of a long shot. When I told him the price, he said, "That car is over-priced!" I said, "You think so? We'll just see about that." As I said, that car was on the market for only about a week before someone who already owns an F1 said, "I'll take that, thank you."
The funny thing - which I see all the time - is that this guy believes that in a few years the cars will be worth 50% more than they are today, but he doesn't like the idea that the price should rise before he buys one.

Rich_W said:

It surprises me that with all the uber wealthy out there, no one has made a daft offer to the Sultan for his cars. He has sold the odd car here and there. #005 came back to the UK a couple years back



And I believe there were "financial irregularities" out there a few years back, so you'd think if someone could broker a $30M, even $40M offer for a LM he'd be interested. So far as I know he hardly (possibly never) drives 99.99% of the cars he owns. They are just ridiculous displays of wealth (bit chav! )

I have no idea what the Brunei people are doing. I'm not sure that they know what they are doing.
Given how badly the cars in their collection have suffered from the climate out there, I'm not sure that I would want one that had been theirs.

Rich_W said:

Chassis #044 was sold Last year at auction for $15,6M (inc fees) Single owner from new which helped as well. Which is where I estimated values from

That was last year. All I can tell you is that there are not many cars for sale at the moment, my acquaintance is not the only person looking for one, and with 250GTO prices going ballistic, the effect on F1 prices is in one direction.

Rich_W said:

Apparently McLaren are looking to sell their cars off since Ron left! Not sure I approve of a company losing its heritage. Saying that I gather GM sold XP3 to raise money for his company.

McLaren Group sold off a bunch of cars last year, and may sell others in the foreseeable future, but they had loads of (racing) cars that never saw the light of day and it probably made sense to lighten their inventory. Very few were F1s. I forget, they may have sold the F1GT prototype last year, but their three best F1s (XP5, XPLM and GTR 001 Le Mans winner were all on display in the exhibition hall when I was there the other day.

[Sway]

Take with massive pinches of salt, but semi-random musings:

The Brunei cars I don't think will ever see the light of day again. Either the facilities they are in are now wrecks with jungle growing through them, or they're hidden away in palaces. The salient point it seems isn't the money - it's the fact the cars in particular are a public symbol of Jeffry lording it up on his brother's largesse. I'd suggest pride will be the main motivator of them being kept out of the public eye or sale room...

As for the 250GTO, it's very very special - and seemingly useable which was always a big part of the appeal for me of the F1.

However, surely if we're comparing numbers, you'd compare GTO with GTR, and 250 series with F1/XP/GTR/LM/etc.?

[thegreenhell]

Does your insurance premium keep going up with the increasing market value, and do they place any extra restrictions on how and where you can use and store the car? Is there a price level at which you'd consider selling yours?

[hurstg01]

flemke said:

of the five customer LMs, three have stayed in Brunei, one has been owned by three different people, and I think that the fifth, which was originally bought from the factory by a Japanese collector, may have changed hands a year or so ago. In addition to Erik, PHer hurstg01 would know.

3 of the LM's are still in Brunei, LM1[ Black with graphics], LM4 [also Black but with slightly different graphics than LM1] and LM5 [Papaya orange, just like XP1LM often seen on the MTC boulevard]. LM2 [Papaya] now resides in Chicago after being released by the 1st owner, a Japanese collector who has had a fair few F1's through his collection, an F1GT and a couple of F1 GTR's as well as a road car to name some off the top of my head. LM3 [Papaya] has changed hands a few times since being bought originally by an Englishman before going to the USA to a racing driver and now has Ralph Lauren's bum prints in its alcantara centre seat.

[flemke]

Sway said:

Take with massive pinches of salt, but semi-random musings:

The Brunei cars I don't think will ever see the light of day again. Either the facilities they are in are now wrecks with jungle growing through them, or they're hidden away in palaces. The salient point it seems isn't the money - it's the fact the cars in particular are a public symbol of Jeffry lording it up on his brother's largesse. I'd suggest pride will be the main motivator of them being kept out of the public eye or sale room...

As for the 250GTO, it's very very special - and seemingly useable which was always a big part of the appeal for me of the F1.

However, surely if we're comparing numbers, you'd compare GTO with GTR, and 250 series with F1/XP/GTR/LM/etc.?

What you say about the Brunei F1s makes sense. Now that oil prices are high, and they apparently have new ways of extracting oil from the Brunei catchment area, there is probably no strong impulse to make further sales.

I don't think a direct comparison between the F1 and the Fezza build numbers is possible. The GTRs were racing cars and, although they are exhilarating to drive on the road for a brief period, they are pretty awful "road cars". I don't see them as exactly comparable to 250 GTOs. As for all the 250s, I think they made about a dozen variants, numbering in the many hundreds, which in terms of build numbers takes them well out of the range of total F1 build numbers.

[flemke]

thegreenhell said:

Does your insurance premium keep going up with the increasing market value, and do they place any extra restrictions on how and where you can use and store the car? Is there a price level at which you'd consider selling yours?

You can get anything insured, and for any value so long it does not exceed the true market value, but you have to pay accordingly. Above a certain (fairly low) level, the premium is a fixed % of the agreed value. Yes, they will try to put a limit on mileage, which at present for me is not a problem.
Is there a level at which I'd consider selling? It would be silly to say that there is NO LEVEL, but mine would not be within shouting distance of the current market.

[flemke]

hurstg01 said:

flemke said:

of the five customer LMs, three have stayed in Brunei, one has been owned by three different people, and I think that the fifth, which was originally bought from the factory by a Japanese collector, may have changed hands a year or so ago. In addition to Erik, PHer hurstg01 would know.

3 of the LM's are still in Brunei, LM1[ Black with graphics], LM4 [also Black but with slightly different graphics than LM1] and LM5 [Papaya orange, just like XP1LM often seen on the MTC boulevard]. LM2 [Papaya] now resides in Chicago after being released by the 1st owner, a Japanese collector who has had a fair few F1's through his collection, an F1GT and a couple of F1 GTR's as well as a road car to name some off the top of my head. LM3 [Papaya] has changed hands a few times since being bought originally by an Englishman before going to the USA to a racing driver and now has Ralph Lauren's bum prints in its alcantara centre seat.

The expert knows.

[Peloton25]

flemke said:

Eta: of the five customer LMs, three have stayed in [Brunei], one has been owned by three different people, and I think that the fifth, which was originally bought from the factory by a Japanese collector, may have changed hands a year or so ago. In addition to Erik, PHer hurstg01 would know.

Yes, the Japanese LM, chassis LM2, was sold through MSO in 2013 to a collector in Chicago who also owns F1 road car #001, has Bruce's original M6 GT, owns the original 1966 McLaren M2B/1 Formula One car, and a host of other significant McLarens. The F1 LM remained in the UK until 2015 when it finally came to the USA.

LM3 is in the collection of Ralph Lauren since late 2004.

As far as I'm aware, the other three remain in the collection of the Brunei Royal Family since new.

Good to see this great discussion still has legs. Hope you are all well.

>8^)
ER


ETA: This is what happens when you wait 30 mins to reply after opening the page.

[Roman Moroni]

As most of the F1 sages are currently around, I've always wondered what happened to the (silver) display car that spent years sat in the showroom on Park Lane?