Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[johnwilliams77]

trackdemon said:

I could stand mere seconds of that video. Wow.

In other news, I'm doubtful that's a real UK Gen 2 Type-R - Honda went to huge expense to bring one here and have it homologated themselves, such that it was deemed economically unviable - so there's only one genuine UK Gen 2 Type-R, which was advertised for vast money a while back. There are a handful of Gen1 cars, including Flemke's.

Good lord - what an annoying voice.

[anonymous-user]

flemke said:

£500k gets you 11% more power, 6% less weight, and I would guess at least 3x as much downforce. Also the looks, which are anti-beautiful but appeal to some people.
Whether that package is worth £750k is personal. I don't think a pint of beer is worth even £0.01, but I'm told that some people disagree.
Yes, the marketing is 80% BS, but I think that applies to pretty much all marketing everywhere.

I'm not questioning the value for money; if anything that's even more subjective than the looks! I'm inclined to think it's probably good value compared to other ''hypercars''. (IMO the 720 looks like outrageously good value)

flemke said:

Could be, although these days they can simulate times with considerable accuracy. I agree that it would be nice to hear something - even "This car on the Nordschleife is 4.2 sec/lap faster than the 650S - but we're not saying how fast the 650S is."

That's what I'm getting at. "Yes it might be ugly but its 20 seconds a lap faster than the P1 round the Ring". Mic drop... (As the kids might say)

[Rich_W]

trackdemon said:

In other news, I'm doubtful that's a real UK Gen 2 Type-R - Honda went to huge expense to bring one here and have it homologated themselves, such that it was deemed economically unviable - so there's only one genuine UK Gen 2 Type-R, which was advertised for vast money a while back. There are a handful of Gen1 cars, including Flemke's.

I assumed it was an import. But then I wondered if they did NA2 Type Rs in colour other than white.

My understanding is that the NSXR mk2 is now eligible to imported to the UK as a "one off" (whatever the term is called) so we may see a few more turn up. Though the one in HK from the classifieds is £330K. Which probably limits the interest a touch. I'd settle for a NA2 in a good colour but there's actually not so many for sale it seems.

[thegreenhell]

Over 10 years old, so can be imported and registered without needing to go through IVA.

[flemke]

Rich_W said:

trackdemon said:

In other news, I'm doubtful that's a real UK Gen 2 Type-R - Honda went to huge expense to bring one here and have it homologated themselves, such that it was deemed economically unviable - so there's only one genuine UK Gen 2 Type-R, which was advertised for vast money a while back. There are a handful of Gen1 cars, including Flemke's.

I assumed it was an import. But then I wondered if they did NA2 Type Rs in colour other than white.

My understanding is that the NSXR mk2 is now eligible to imported to the UK as a "one off" (whatever the term is called) so we may see a few more turn up. Though the one in HK from the classifieds is £330K. Which probably limits the interest a touch. I'd settle for a NA2 in a good colour but there's actually not so many for sale it seems.

Transportation plus customs plus VAT adding more than £100k onto that.

[Rich_W]

flemke said:

Rich_W said:

trackdemon said:

In other news, I'm doubtful that's a real UK Gen 2 Type-R - Honda went to huge expense to bring one here and have it homologated themselves, such that it was deemed economically unviable - so there's only one genuine UK Gen 2 Type-R, which was advertised for vast money a while back. There are a handful of Gen1 cars, including Flemke's.

I assumed it was an import. But then I wondered if they did NA2 Type Rs in colour other than white.

My understanding is that the NSXR mk2 is now eligible to imported to the UK as a "one off" (whatever the term is called) so we may see a few more turn up. Though the one in HK from the classifieds is £330K. Which probably limits the interest a touch. I'd settle for a NA2 in a good colour but there's actually not so many for sale it seems.

Transportation plus customs plus VAT adding more than £100k onto that.

So you're saying it's probably not a genuine Type R in the video




I'm not sure how many car collectors would drop £400K on a Type R NSX anyway! Is there a price limit for rarity? Especially since it's not that different to a standard car

[flemke]

Rich_W said:

flemke said:

Rich_W said:

trackdemon said:

In other news, I'm doubtful that's a real UK Gen 2 Type-R - Honda went to huge expense to bring one here and have it homologated themselves, such that it was deemed economically unviable - so there's only one genuine UK Gen 2 Type-R, which was advertised for vast money a while back. There are a handful of Gen1 cars, including Flemke's.

I assumed it was an import. But then I wondered if they did NA2 Type Rs in colour other than white.

My understanding is that the NSXR mk2 is now eligible to imported to the UK as a "one off" (whatever the term is called) so we may see a few more turn up. Though the one in HK from the classifieds is £330K. Which probably limits the interest a touch. I'd settle for a NA2 in a good colour but there's actually not so many for sale it seems.

Transportation plus customs plus VAT adding more than £100k onto that.

So you're saying it's probably not a genuine Type R in the video




I'm not sure how many car collectors would drop £400K on a Type R NSX anyway! Is there a price limit for rarity? Especially since it's not that different to a standard car

No I wouldn't say that it's not genuine. One would have to look on the inside (at least). There used to be a fellow in Germany who had access to loads of NSX factory NOS. It might have been possible to create a cosmetic replica of the Gen 2 Type-R by buying bits from him. I have no opinion on this car.
Just because some guy in HK is offering one for £330k does not mean that the owner of the red car in the video paid anything like that for his car.
As I have said before, I think that Honda got it wrong in the spec of the Gen 2 Type-R, and the Gen 1 is a better car (certainly for the UK). The newer car is too stiffly damped and the gaps between the shifting points are too narrow.
The Type-R has a very different vibe to the standard car. They are both great cars, but the difference is akin to that between a Carrera 2 and a GT3.

[Rich_W]

flemke said:

...
As I have said before, I think that Honda got it wrong in the spec of the Gen 2 Type-R, and the Gen 1 is a better car (certainly for the UK). The newer car is too stiffly damped and the gaps between the shifting points are too narrow.
The Type-R has a very different vibe to the standard car. They are both great cars, but the difference is akin to that between a Carrera 2 and a GT3.

Same dealer in HK

NA1 Type R £POA

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

Flemke said:

The Type-R has a very different vibe to the standard car. They are both great cars, but the difference is akin to that between a Carrera 2 and a GT3.

That's a surprise. I always thought it was fundamentally similar, just a bit fiddled with. Clearly not.


NSX I such an interesting car to me. Everyone says it's brilliant, it's got that Senna link. Yet you rarely see them. (I've only even known 1 guy with one, and that was 14 years ago!) Even big Honda fans don't tend to get involved with them. I suppose that's half the appeal

[flemke]

Rich_W said:

That's a surprise. I always thought it was fundamentally similar, just a bit fiddled with. Clearly not.


NSX I such an interesting car to me. Everyone says it's brilliant, it's got that Senna link. Yet you rarely see them. (I've only even known 1 guy with one, and that was 14 years ago!) Even big Honda fans don't tend to get involved with them. I suppose that's half the appeal

Both the Gen 1 and the Gen 2 Type-R followed the same formula, which was stiffer suspension, shortened final drive, bucket seats, weight reduction, supposedly some trick bits in the engine, and probably some other things that I cannot recall.

As I said, the result is as big a difference from the standard car as there is with a GT3. IMO, however, in the Gen 2 they went too far in a couple of respects.

The suspension is so stiff that, when you go over a bump (a modest one, not a massive one) at speed, it feels as though the rear tyres have left the ground. It is dysfunctional on a typical public road. We don't always drive road cars on mill pond-smooth circuits!

The other thing that I thought was ill-judged was the gear ratios. On the Gen 1, there is a 5-speed 'box, so when you shorten the gearing there is still enough of a rev range between shift points. The Gen 2 has a 6-speed, which is great in the standard car, but in the Type-R it felt like I constantly had to shift gears, to the point where it detracted from the driving experience.

The Gen 2 looks great, especially in white/black, but I think the Gen 1 is a better road car.

Regarding rarity, being London-based I see one probably a couple of times a year. They built approx 18,000 NSXs, as I recall, with almost half going to the States as Acura NSXs and about half staying in Japan. Not that many came to Europe. There was one year towards the end of production when a total of 12 new cars was sold here.

[LarJammer]

Although there are 18,000 globally, only around 300 reside in the UK which shows how unloved it was when new (and still is in comparison to Porsche etc.).

In addition to the points mentioned above, the Type R also had underfloor aero, lightweight everything and a hand built, blue printed engine. The GT3 comparison is very apt.

[Rich_W]

flemke said:

Rich_W said:

That's a surprise. I always thought it was fundamentally similar, just a bit fiddled with. Clearly not.


NSX I such an interesting car to me. Everyone says it's brilliant, it's got that Senna link. Yet you rarely see them. (I've only even known 1 guy with one, and that was 14 years ago!) Even big Honda fans don't tend to get involved with them. I suppose that's half the appeal

Both the Gen 1 and the Gen 2 Type-R followed the same formula, which was stiffer suspension, shortened final drive, bucket seats, weight reduction, supposedly some trick bits in the engine, and probably some other things that I cannot recall.

As I said, the result is as big a difference from the standard car as there is with a GT3. IMO, however, in the Gen 2 they went too far in a couple of respects.

The suspension is so stiff that, when you go over a bump (a modest one, not a massive one) at speed, it feels as though the rear tyres have left the ground. It is dysfunctional on a typical public road. We don't always drive road cars on mill pond-smooth circuits!

The other thing that I thought was ill-judged was the gear ratios. On the Gen 1, there is a 5-speed 'box, so when you shorten the gearing there is still enough of a rev range between shift points. The Gen 2 has a 6-speed, which is great in the standard car, but in the Type-R it felt like I constantly had to shift gears, to the point where it detracted from the driving experience.

The Gen 2 looks great, especially in white/black, but I think the Gen 1 is a better road car.

Regarding rarity, being London-based I see one probably a couple of times a year. They built approx 18,000 NSXs, as I recall, with almost half going to the States as Acura NSXs and about half staying in Japan. Not that many came to Europe. There was one year towards the end of production when a total of 12 new cars was sold here.

Thanks for the details.

Murray has said previously the NSX was the best mid-engined car they benchmarked against. Which then gets implied (by journos) to mean NSX is the closest you can get in feel to an F1 (without the significant outlay )

Is that hyperbole or even remotely true? My guess would be the engine so dominates the F1 that any comparisons are chalk and crayon.

[dobly]

The NSX has great balance, poise, and fluidity, despite being stiff and rigid. It does not have huge amounts of power (in today's terms) - just enough for road use.

Two thirds of NSX production was made in the first few years - '90 - '92 (over 12,000).
The Type R was announced in November '92 and around 460 were produced - 92R
The Type T (targa top car) was announced in '95 causing a spike in sales (mainly in North America)
A new larger engine was introduced in February '97 - worldwide production after this year was never more than 500 units per year, including all variants.
The Type S & S-Zero were introduced in '97 - the S-Zero to fill the gap left by the discontinuation of the Type R in '96.
The facelift NSX was announced at the end of 2001. The second Type R from 2002 sold around 150 examples - 02R
Production ceased in 2005 - worldwide sales ~18,000, over half to North America.

Edited by dobly on Monday 12th November 21:40

Edited by dobly on Thursday 15th November 20:48

[RedCarsGoFaster]

Rich_W said:

I assumed it was an import. But then I wondered if they did NA2 Type Rs in colour other than white.

My understanding is that the NSXR mk2 is now eligible to imported to the UK as a "one off" (whatever the term is called) so we may see a few more turn up. Though the one in HK from the classifieds is £330K. Which probably limits the interest a touch. I'd settle for a NA2 in a good colour but there's actually not so many for sale it seems.

Both variants of the Type R were available in colours other than white, though you may have had to make a special order.

Within the last year or so I've been in conversation with two different import specialists, and have asked each in passing what it would cost, all fees included, to import an NSX-R from Japan. They were both of the opinion that the figure would start at around £250,000.

Of course, if you wanted an NSX that drove with a little more focus on performance than the regular car you could buy a "normal" NSX and make some changes for considerably less than this, as some of the key changes to the Type R are surprisingly inexpensive to replicate. You would not have a Type R, but you would have an outstanding road car. The problem (as it has been since 1991) is that you would still be buying something that would cost more than a wide range of newer, faster cars with more appealing badges.

. . . musing on this topic may have occupied rather more of my time than is strictly healthy over the last few months . . .

I know of seven NSX Type Rs that have been in the UK, of which only one (Flemke's) was an official Honda import. There are a couple of the Type S as well.

[flemke]

Rich_W said:

Thanks for the details.

Murray has said previously the NSX was the best mid-engined car they benchmarked against. Which then gets implied (by journos) to mean NSX is the closest you can get in feel to an F1 (without the significant outlay )

Is that hyperbole or even remotely true? My guess would be the engine so dominates the F1 that any comparisons are chalk and crayon.

The NSX has the best chassis of any road car that I have driven, I'll say that.
The F1 has a very low polar moment because of that big lump of engine in the middle and a paucity of weight at either end. In that respect it is more extreme than the NSX (and everything else).
As between the two, the F1's engine performance (in addition to the centrality of its weight) does dominate the driving experience. The engine in the NSX is more an equal partner in the experience.
The NSX's handling is certainly more predictable and benign than the F1's is. Both cars have what I would call correct steering ratios for road driving, whereas too many modern "supercars" have foolishly fast ratios.
Yes, the two cars are chalk and cheese. Nonetheless they are my two favourite road cars.

[flemke]

RedCarsGoFaster said:

Rich_W said:

I assumed it was an import. But then I wondered if they did NA2 Type Rs in colour other than white.

My understanding is that the NSXR mk2 is now eligible to imported to the UK as a "one off" (whatever the term is called) so we may see a few more turn up. Though the one in HK from the classifieds is £330K. Which probably limits the interest a touch. I'd settle for a NA2 in a good colour but there's actually not so many for sale it seems.

Within the last year or so I've been in conversation with two different import specialists, and have asked each in passing what it would cost, all fees included, to import an NSX-R from Japan. They were both of the opinion that the figure would start at around £250,000.

Two or three years ago you could buy a couple of Gen 1 Type-Rs in the UK, all fees paid, for less than half that. They needed some work, but not £150 grand's worth!

[RedCarsGoFaster]

flemke said:

Two or three years ago you could buy a couple of Gen 1 Type-Rs in the UK, all fees paid, for less than half that. They needed some work, but not £150 grand's worth!

And just a few years before that there was an NSX-R for sale on Pistonheads for (IIRC) < £50k.

Oh, if only I'd known, etc, etc . . .

[flemke]

RedCarsGoFaster said:

flemke said:

Two or three years ago you could buy a couple of Gen 1 Type-Rs in the UK, all fees paid, for less than half that. They needed some work, but not £150 grand's worth!

And just a few years before that there was an NSX-R for sale on Pistonheads for (IIRC) < £50k.

Oh, if only I'd known, etc, etc . . .

I appreciate that, but my point was not that once upon a time you could buy a house in London for £10,000.
Prices for good sports cars (and some bad ones) rose a lot from about 2012 to 2017. The prices of a few of them have continued to go up, but in the last 18 months most have come down a fair amount.
The NSX-R is rare enough that its market could have a life of its own, but I would be very surprised if the actual underlying market in Japan had more than doubled in the last three years. The pound is down 25% (nice one, Boris ), accounting for part of the difference, but that would take the basic cost of sourcing a car in Japan and bringing it to the UK from say £80k to £100k equivalent. Yet these two importers claim that the current cost would be two-and-one-half times that. It's possible that they are correct, but I think it more likely that they were just taking wild stabs and in reality they don't know what they're talking about.

[anniesdad]

flemke said:

The NSX has the best chassis of any road car that I have driven, I'll say that.
The F1 has a very low polar moment because of that big lump of engine in the middle and a paucity of weight at either end. In that respect it is more extreme than the NSX (and everything else).
As between the two, the F1's engine performance (in addition to the centrality of its weight) does dominate the driving experience. The engine in the NSX is more an equal partner in the experience.
The NSX's handling is certainly more predictable and benign than the F1's is. Both cars have what I would call correct steering ratios for road driving, whereas too many modern "supercars" have foolishly fast ratios.
Yes, the two cars are chalk and cheese. Nonetheless they are my two favourite road cars.

One was also driven by arguably the coolest fictional character in film history. Winston Wolf.

[flemke]

anniesdad said:

One was also driven by arguably the coolest fictional character in film history. Winston Wolf.

I know, but for all the recent Direct Line Insurance adverts on British TV they've got him in a GT86.

[anniesdad]

I can forgive him driving a GT86 but working for an insurance company.