Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
flemke said:
E65Ross said:
fblm said:
1.313 (2.3 seconds faster) is ridiculously fast. I could have sworn I read 0.3 seconds previously, my apologies. My only observations are that a 'better driver' would almost certainly get a 720 round faster too so I don't think you can just add the difference like that, secondly tyres; around Anglesea, in Evo's hands, the P1 was 1.4 seconds faster on TR's than Corsa's so you can add that back on for a start. The more I read about the Senna, the more I'm convinced... by how incredible the poverty spec 720 is! 
I think their point about getting more time from the Senna was that it's harder to extract the full potential from the Senna than the full potential from the 720S as it requires more driver commitment as it's a fair bit quicker. For example (a bit extreme I know) but it's easier to get to 90% of the ability of a BMW 320d than to get 90% of the ability of a BMW M3.... Let alone a Senna. fblm said:
flemke said:
E65Ross said:
fblm said:
1.313 (2.3 seconds faster) is ridiculously fast. I could have sworn I read 0.3 seconds previously, my apologies. My only observations are that a 'better driver' would almost certainly get a 720 round faster too so I don't think you can just add the difference like that, secondly tyres; around Anglesea, in Evo's hands, the P1 was 1.4 seconds faster on TR's than Corsa's so you can add that back on for a start. The more I read about the Senna, the more I'm convinced... by how incredible the poverty spec 720 is!
I think their point about getting more time from the Senna was that it's harder to extract the full potential from the Senna than the full potential from the 720S as it requires more driver commitment as it's a fair bit quicker. For example (a bit extreme I know) but it's easier to get to 90% of the ability of a BMW 320d than to get 90% of the ability of a BMW M3.... Let alone a Senna. isaldiri said:
SpeckledJim said:
Something I've never fully understood: does the grip available from a downforce car ever increase at a greater rate than proportional to the speed?
Downforce is proportional to the square of speed. In theory anyway and assuming no active aero.But don't some wings only start really working at Xmph, whilst others will stall at Ymph?
SpeckledJim said:
isaldiri said:
SpeckledJim said:
Something I've never fully understood: does the grip available from a downforce car ever increase at a greater rate than proportional to the speed?
Downforce is proportional to the square of speed. In theory anyway and assuming no active aero.But don't some wings only start really working at Xmph, whilst others will stall at Ymph?
ETA relevance (sort of) to the topic: the NSX is cool:-)
Edited by Osamu Rosche on Wednesday 14th November 18:33
SpeckledJim said:
So that indicates a fixed relationship?
But don't some wings only start really working at Xmph, whilst others will stall at Ymph?
That's related to angle of attack of the airfoil as well so it's a bit more complicated than I either understand or can explain with my very superficial understanding of aerodynamics unfortunately! I think in practice downforce to speed won't be fixed but that's due to stuff like ride height etc changing but broadly the increase being proportional to speed square I think isn't going to be too far off. Maybe someone who actually knows what he's talking about could chime in.. But don't some wings only start really working at Xmph, whilst others will stall at Ymph?
Animal said:
flemke said:
Brexit? 
I don't think I have ever seen such utter chaos, except maybe during a Category 5 hurricane. The amount of nonsense and illogic is incredible.
My favourite among numerous examples of idiocy is the way the clowns on both sides make confident pronouncements that the UK will be better off in scenario A or the opposite scenario B. The reality is that no one on earth has any real idea what the EU political or economic environment will be in 20 years - let alone 50! - so how can they possibly know whether the UK would be better off within or outside it?
It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong as long as you're certain!I don't think I have ever seen such utter chaos, except maybe during a Category 5 hurricane. The amount of nonsense and illogic is incredible.
My favourite among numerous examples of idiocy is the way the clowns on both sides make confident pronouncements that the UK will be better off in scenario A or the opposite scenario B. The reality is that no one on earth has any real idea what the EU political or economic environment will be in 20 years - let alone 50! - so how can they possibly know whether the UK would be better off within or outside it?
Voxy said:
Likewise, I am in no position to disagree with your comments. There isn’t really a bargaining culture for cars, or much else, here. But it is entirely possible the car I posted has been sat unsold at the dealership for quite some time.
That often happens. What also happens, at least in Europe, is that people will advertise "for sale" cars that they do not expect to sell, at prices that are well above the market and unattainable. Supposedly their motivation for this is to pretend that their cars are worth those inflated prices. Makes no sense to me, but there's a lot that makes no sense to me. 
isaldiri said:
flemke said:
Agreed. Driving a "downforce" car is not a straight extrapolation of driving a normal, non-downforce car but in a faster version. In a downforce car, you need to get your head around the fact that, the faster you go, the more grip you have available to exploit, which allows you to go faster still, which generates further downforce, et al.
But the Senna is more like something along the lines of a GT3 racing car which does have quite a lot of downforce but the aero isn't as much of a dominant feature on it as a LMP or single seater racing car which would be what I'd personally consider true downforce cars. A lmp car will produce more downforce than the weight of the car, substantially more in the case of the higher classes. McLaren claim 800kg at 250mph which is a lot but the impact of downforce in theory is a ratio of the car weight and with fuel and driver the Senna is going to be over 1400kg.The Senna produces 800kg of DF at 155 mph. The latest version of the GT3RS appears to produce 350kg of DF at 186, which I believe would take it to about 245kg of DF at 155. Dry weights: RS 1430 and Senna 1198.
If we add 150kg of weight to each car to reflect fluids and driver, we get to 1580 and 1348 respectively.
That would mean RS's DF-to-weight is 0.15, and the Senna's is 0.59 - quite a difference!
E65Ross said:
fblm said:
flemke said:
E65Ross said:
fblm said:
1.313 (2.3 seconds faster) is ridiculously fast. I could have sworn I read 0.3 seconds previously, my apologies. My only observations are that a 'better driver' would almost certainly get a 720 round faster too so I don't think you can just add the difference like that, secondly tyres; around Anglesea, in Evo's hands, the P1 was 1.4 seconds faster on TR's than Corsa's so you can add that back on for a start. The more I read about the Senna, the more I'm convinced... by how incredible the poverty spec 720 is!
I think their point about getting more time from the Senna was that it's harder to extract the full potential from the Senna than the full potential from the 720S as it requires more driver commitment as it's a fair bit quicker. For example (a bit extreme I know) but it's easier to get to 90% of the ability of a BMW 320d than to get 90% of the ability of a BMW M3.... Let alone a Senna. Relatively few people have driven proper downforce cars at all, and fewer still are good enough at it to exploit what is available in a car like the Senna.
That tells me that, in the absence of a professional racing driver with proper DF experience (such as JR Hildebrand, who gave the Senna such a strong review a few months ago), journos' lap-times will be misleading and almost certainly understate the car's ability. At the same time, it could well be said, almost no Senna owner will be able to exploit much of its potential DF, and therefore the car's abilities will be wasted.
flemke said:
Yes, but I think the point is not that LMPs, et al. have far more DF-to-weight than a Senna does, but rather that a Senna has far more DF-to-weight than almost or perhaps every other production road car does. Indeed, at 150 mph (which I think you meant) most road cars have lift, especially at the front.
The Senna produces 800kg of DF at 155 mph. The latest version of the GT3RS appears to produce 350kg of DF at 186, which I believe would take it to about 245kg of DF at 155. Dry weights: RS 1430 and Senna 1198.
If we add 150kg of weight to each car to reflect fluids and driver, we get to 1580 and 1348 respectively.
That would mean RS's DF-to-weight is 0.15, and the Senna's is 0.59 - quite a difference!
Excluding stuff like the radical rxc (nominally a production road car The Senna produces 800kg of DF at 155 mph. The latest version of the GT3RS appears to produce 350kg of DF at 186, which I believe would take it to about 245kg of DF at 155. Dry weights: RS 1430 and Senna 1198.
If we add 150kg of weight to each car to reflect fluids and driver, we get to 1580 and 1348 respectively.
That would mean RS's DF-to-weight is 0.15, and the Senna's is 0.59 - quite a difference!
), I don't disagree the Senna will produce more downforce than any other road car, certainly more than a gt3 rs. However it's not a lot more if at all compared to a GT racing car and one doesn't need to be quite as specialised or used to exploiting downforce in one of those compared to say a LMP car.P.S given a 675 a friend actually weighed, (full tank no driver) came in at 1380kg vs 1230 claimed dry weight I think it's unlikely a Senna will be 1350kg with driver.
Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 15th November 00:12
RedCarsGoFaster said:
Both variants of the Type R were available in colours other than white, though you may have had to make a special order.
I know of seven NSX Type Rs that have been in the UK, of which only one (Flemke's) was an official Honda import. There are a couple of the Type S as well.
Late to the party here but I think the colours were options.I know of seven NSX Type Rs that have been in the UK, of which only one (Flemke's) was an official Honda import. There are a couple of the Type S as well.
I may have missed something but I thought Flemke's R is an NA1. I don't think HUK brought one of those in. Per above, they did bring in one NA2. I may have missed the bit where Flemke bought that one, too as I've skimmed a big chunk of thread.
FWIW, the late NA2 car is just about the best blend of everything in a road car. Slightly quicker rack/smaller steering wheel may arguably be of benefit. Not much else.
The NA2 R was, per Flemke's comments, derided for being so stiff as to be impractical. Given the marginal gains and significant losses, I'd stick with the standard NA2.
And the McLaren line-up is so gopping it's untrue.
^ That's a fantastic photo, showing the McLaren at it's best angle.
Going back to the NSX-R - they were essentially built to order, and could be specified in any of around 15 colours. Most were built in Championship White with the red seat covers. I have seen a few in blue and black, with black seats and dark grey wheels.
Going back to the NSX-R - they were essentially built to order, and could be specified in any of around 15 colours. Most were built in Championship White with the red seat covers. I have seen a few in blue and black, with black seats and dark grey wheels.
SpeckledJim said:
Someone should do an NSX short tail!
I often thought that but, and I could as I often am wrong, but on this thread (not sure what vol.) flemke (I think) showed a side profile of an NSX against a ‘short tail’ version. It looked so wrong.
I didn’t expect it to look wrong but it really did. Made me realise how little I had an eye for design.
As said...I could have imagined the whole thing and I’m talking total b
ks. Wouldn’t be the first time nor the last. hondafanatic said:
SpeckledJim said:
Someone should do an NSX short tail!
I often thought that but, and I could as I often am wrong, but on this thread (not sure what vol.) flemke (I think) showed a side profile of an NSX against a ‘short tail’ version. It looked so wrong.
I didn’t expect it to look wrong but it really did. Made me realise how little I had an eye for design.
As said...I could have imagined the whole thing and I’m talking total b
ks. Wouldn’t be the first time nor the last. chris333 said:
Just to help along the discussion on the NS-X rear overhang, here's a slightly shorter one:
personally, I'm sticking with Honda's design.
personally, I'm sticking with Honda's design.
thegreenhell said:
hondafanatic said:
SpeckledJim said:
Someone should do an NSX short tail!
I often thought that but, and I could as I often am wrong, but on this thread (not sure what vol.) flemke (I think) showed a side profile of an NSX against a ‘short tail’ version. It looked so wrong.
I didn’t expect it to look wrong but it really did. Made me realise how little I had an eye for design.
As said...I could have imagined the whole thing and I’m talking total b
ks. Wouldn’t be the first time nor the last. chris333 said:
Just to help along the discussion on the NS-X rear overhang, here's a slightly shorter one:
personally, I'm sticking with Honda's design.
personally, I'm sticking with Honda's design.
What do you think Speckled Jim? Or have you been eaten and we deny everything?
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