Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[Swampy1982]

Hi Flemke,

I just wondered if you had a chance to attend this, if not you may enjoy the "virtual tour"

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[S1KRR]

TIGA84 said:

So do we know the true number of the 64 road cars still on the road given the Brunei cars, the crashed ones, and the one that disappeared in a Mexican drug cartel?

Erik "Peleton25" will know. If you google him, he'll have posted it somewhere. Must be the worlds (non McLaren employee) leading authority on the F1. I'm told he's assisted with sales of cars in terms of knowing the history or provenance!

Edited by S1KRR on Tuesday 28th May 19:59

[flemke]

S1KRR said:

flemke said:

You have covered a lot of ground.

...

- Price-wise, these days a nice standard car is more than $20m, maybe $22m on a good day. A true LM would be - IMO - $35m, that sort of thing.

Thanks for the response When my numbers come up. I'll be sure to seek your assistance.

I'm surprised no one has made Brueni a "silly" offer for some of his cars. I would have thought those suitably well heeled value rarity quite highly. And the cachet of getting one of the LMs for example out would be a significant draw.


Which, (and please don't answer this personally Flemke), makes me wonder whether there's an owner out there who just has an F1 and a daily driver* parked in the garage of a relatively modest home. I suspect most owners have a minimum of 6 cars in their fleet.


* preferably something like a 10 year old estate that does looks like it does runs to the dump and Tescos

My daily driver is 15 years, has a dent in the door and is worth roughly £2,500. Does that count?

[flemke]

TIGA84 said:

flemke said:

S1KRR said:

flemke said:

... I'll mention the word "bargepole" and leave it at that.

You've hinted at various people in the F1 environ that you are less than impressed with. So to keep this positive I'll suggest only naming the people you like.

If someone you know came to you and asked for advice on sourcing and purchasing a F1 who would you point them in the direction of? Kidston? (a fellow owner of course) McLaren themselves? AN Other?

Who would you have check the car over on their behalf prior to purchase?

Would you be willing to go with that person as a 2nd pair of eyes to inspect (assuming you knew them reasonably well)

Who would you then send them to if they wanted to repaint and retrim the car (as seems common)

Would you suggest essential modifications? Not necessarily the extensive work you've had done. But something like the HID kit or the uprated AC or "add a bit of leather here, as it rubs on your elbow otherwise" IIRC you had the LM handbrake but it got silly hot to touch in the summer.

And lastly, would you advise on price? Are you au fait enough with current or recent sales, to be able to put a realistic value on the hypothetical roadcar or GTR in front of you?

In my head a road converted GTR is circa £8-10, a decent road car is probably £12ish. That late car with the LM engine and the yellow "delivery miles" cars are probably outliers and slightly more. A LM would be probably nearer £25-30! (of course these owners don't tend to sell. Cant imagine the Sultan ever letting his go)

You have covered a lot of ground.

- I have been asked for and have given advice about buying F1s, most recently earlier this year, a couple of times last year, and so on. What I would advise would depend on the circumstances.
A friend sold an F1 through Kidston and was happy with how he was treated, so that would be a possibility, although it appears that Kidston normally advertises what he has for sale, so if he's not advertising one he probably would not be the first call.
Usually what these dealers are looking for is a conversation starter. If they get a live would-be buyer, that gives them an excuse to contact all the owners whom they know. They will get some feedback from those owners and, even if nothing gets done with the original would-be buyer, they might learn that car "X" is for sale for more than that buyer wants to pay. The dealer then will contact other people who might be potential buyers, marketing car "X".

- Most of the time, MSO (McLaren) will for a fee check over a car and give an inspection report. They are the only recognised authority at that level, although the specialist at McLaren Philadelphia is good.

- In some circumstances I would be willing to accompany them to inspect the car and in the past I have done so, test driven the car, etc.

- For repainting, the whole car has to be taken apart, so the factory would be the safest option, although I have seen one car that was repainted by an independent and it was as good a paint job as I have ever seen on any car. For retrimming, it's not as critical. At one stage I was not happy with the trimmer that MSO were using so I used an independent (with MSO's cooperation to disassemble and reassemble the pieces).

- What modifications? A lot of the cars have had the factory upgrades for A/C and headlamps. They are kind-of required. I don't think the standard four-point driver's harnesses are that good, so that would be another obvious thing. Aesthetic changes (including high-downforce kit) are personal. Mechanical changes such as I have done are tricky and a big job - not something that should be done by halves. Problem with that LM-style handbrake was that its edges tended to cut into one's hand; the normal wood version works better.

- Price-wise, these days a nice standard car is more than $20m, maybe $22m on a good day. A true LM would be - IMO - $35m, that sort of thing.

- Re Brunei, they started out with 9 cars. One has been crashed, not repaired and its remains are in a shed in Brunei, one was sold about a dozen years ago, another was sold more recently. Fwiw, because of the climate and problematical conditions in which the Brunei cars have been stored, the market tends to discount a car coming from there. It's not a huge difference, but there is a difference.

So do we know the true number of the 64 road cars still on the road given the Brunei cars, the crashed ones, and the one that disappeared in a Mexican drug cartel?

Of the 64 customer (non-prototype) road cars, four have been written off. Of those four, two were destroyed and the other two are still in a crashed state and could theoretically be repaired by the factory and put back on the road. The Brunei cars (other than the crashed one) are AFAIK all usable or at least would be usable after a major service/rejuvenation.
I have no idea what happened to the one that supposedly made a one-way trip to Mexico. The last I knew (a couple of years ago) the factory had no idea either.

[ferrisbueller]

flemke said:

S1KRR said:

flemke said:

You have covered a lot of ground.

...

- Price-wise, these days a nice standard car is more than $20m, maybe $22m on a good day. A true LM would be - IMO - $35m, that sort of thing.

Thanks for the response When my numbers come up. I'll be sure to seek your assistance.

I'm surprised no one has made Brueni a "silly" offer for some of his cars. I would have thought those suitably well heeled value rarity quite highly. And the cachet of getting one of the LMs for example out would be a significant draw.


Which, (and please don't answer this personally Flemke), makes me wonder whether there's an owner out there who just has an F1 and a daily driver* parked in the garage of a relatively modest home. I suspect most owners have a minimum of 6 cars in their fleet.


* preferably something like a 10 year old estate that does looks like it does runs to the dump and Tescos

My daily driver is 15 years, has a dent in the door and is worth roughly £2,500. Does that count?

The A2 lives on?

[flemke]

Swampy1982 said:

Hi Flemke,

I just wondered if you had a chance to attend this, if not you may enjoy the "virtual tour"

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Nice, thank you.
I have a more than passing familiarity with a few of the cars in the exhibition and have ordered a book, supposedly ready next month.

Cheers.

[flemke]

ferrisbueller said:

flemke said:

S1KRR said:

flemke said:

You have covered a lot of ground.

...

- Price-wise, these days a nice standard car is more than $20m, maybe $22m on a good day. A true LM would be - IMO - $35m, that sort of thing.

Thanks for the response When my numbers come up. I'll be sure to seek your assistance.

I'm surprised no one has made Brueni a "silly" offer for some of his cars. I would have thought those suitably well heeled value rarity quite highly. And the cachet of getting one of the LMs for example out would be a significant draw.


Which, (and please don't answer this personally Flemke), makes me wonder whether there's an owner out there who just has an F1 and a daily driver* parked in the garage of a relatively modest home. I suspect most owners have a minimum of 6 cars in their fleet.


* preferably something like a 10 year old estate that does looks like it does runs to the dump and Tescos

My daily driver is 15 years, has a dent in the door and is worth roughly £2,500. Does that count?

The A2 lives on?

Like a virus!
I don't want to get rid of it partly because it has a wonderful steering wheel, partly because the packaging is brilliant, and partly because it is worth so little that I never have to worry about somebody's putting a (that is, another) dent in the bodywork.

[Police State]

Hi Flemke, I understand that you will eventually be moving (or spending a good deal of time in the US.

Do you think that you will be heading for Barret-Jackson at some point, and perhaps adding some American Muscle to your stateside garage?

[flemke]

Police State said:

Hi Flemke, I understand that you will eventually be moving (or spending a good deal of time in the US.

Do you think that you will be heading for Barret-Jackson at some point, and perhaps adding some American Muscle to your stateside garage?

No, I am afraid that I don't see the point of those cars, or perhaps I should say that I see the point for some people but it doesn't work for me.

[marine boy]

flemke said:

- Re Brunei, they started out with 9 cars. One has been crashed, not repaired and its remains are in a shed in Brunei, one was sold about a dozen years ago, another was sold more recently. Fwiw, because of the climate and problematical conditions in which the Brunei cars have been stored, the market tends to discount a car coming from there. It's not a huge difference, but there is a difference.

I put the last nail into the coffin for the Brunei car as McLaren wouldn't let me rebuild body shell from the one salvageable part which was a door

Was just talking about this accident a couple of weeks ago as I'm working again with the guy who crashed it

F1 is an extremely strong cat to have an off in but he was very lucky to be able to joke about it

[PGNSagaris]

That stripe on the door looks familiar

[S1KRR]

PGNSagaris said:

That stripe on the door looks familiar

I thought that was long since dispensed with by Mr F. Surprised it's still got the BRDC badge on the back like his F1

[flemke]

S1KRR said:

PGNSagaris said:

That stripe on the door looks familiar

I thought that was long since dispensed with by Mr F. Surprised it's still got the BRDC badge on the back like his F1

Not a BRDC badge. It's a "BRUCE MCLAREN MOTOR RACING TEAM" badge.

[flemke]

marine boy said:

flemke said:

- Re Brunei, they started out with 9 cars. One has been crashed, not repaired and its remains are in a shed in Brunei, one was sold about a dozen years ago, another was sold more recently. Fwiw, because of the climate and problematical conditions in which the Brunei cars have been stored, the market tends to discount a car coming from there. It's not a huge difference, but there is a difference.

I put the last nail into the coffin for the Brunei car as McLaren wouldn't let me rebuild body shell from the one salvageable part which was a door

Was just talking about this accident a couple of weeks ago as I'm working again with the guy who crashed it

F1 is an extremely strong cat to have an off in but he was very lucky to be able to joke about it

You are saying that all the bodywork except one door was damaged but the factory would not countenance rebuilding the body?

[marine boy]

flemke said:

You are saying that all the bodywork except one door was damaged but the factory would not countenance rebuilding the body?

No, not just bodywork, lots of chassis damage too.

Armco post had smashed through the door sill section and floor right up to the centre tunnel on one side (any passenger would have lost their legs)

Central air box was cracked as if the car at the rear had been folded along the centreline of the chassis and front corner of the roof was crushed down

A big shunt as shunts go!

Bodywork damage ie rear quarters and local chassis damage is an easy fix, we repaired a 97 Gulf car for GTC two weeks before the 97 Le Mans. Needed about 4 man weeks of work over 3 days, I spent the whole time in the composite workshops project managing it all. Everyone was happy as no one thought we could do it in time, even handed it to the team a day early. Long days but all good fun back then!

Given the chance now I'm sure I could find a way to repair the Brunei car but back then it was too big a job, needed a new chassis to fix properly, repairing it using the chassis jigs would have disrupted the production schedule too much

[CanAm]

S1KRR said:

I thought that was long since dispensed with by Mr F. Surprised it's still got the BRDC badge on the back like his F1

If you mean the one on the left, it looks more like a Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Team badge to me.

[anonymous-user]

Hi Flemke, I met you at my first trip to the Nordschleife in September 2005 where you kindly gave me a hot lap in your GT3, and Joe in his 964RS. It's a memory that will live with me forever

We chatted a little about the F1 and you hinted that I might want to pop down to Manthey Racing that afternoon. I duly went down and the car was parked outside in the sunshine. I have a handful of pictures of the car when it was in the lighter blue colour, with the temporary gold BBS wheels. If I blank the plates would you have any objection to me posting them in this thread?

Cheers
Iain

[hurstg01]

marine boy said:

flemke said:

You are saying that all the bodywork except one door was damaged but the factory would not countenance rebuilding the body?

No, not just bodywork, lots of chassis damage too.

Armco post had smashed through the door sill section and floor right up to the centre tunnel on one side (any passenger would have lost their legs)

Central air box was cracked as if the car at the rear had been folded along the centreline of the chassis and front corner of the roof was crushed down

A big shunt as shunts go!

Bodywork damage ie rear quarters and local chassis damage is an easy fix, we repaired a 97 Gulf car for GTC two weeks before the 97 Le Mans. Needed about 4 man weeks of work over 3 days, I spent the whole time in the composite workshops project managing it all. Everyone was happy as no one thought we could do it in time, even handed it to the team a day early. Long days but all good fun back then!

Given the chance now I'm sure I could find a way to repair the Brunei car but back then it was too big a job, needed a new chassis to fix properly, repairing it using the chassis jigs would have disrupted the production schedule too much

Great story, thanks for the info. At least there are another 3 red F1's around nowadays

[ferrisbueller]

Reports of Murray making a modern day F1 with an NA V12.

Will this come to fruition? Does anyone have any insider information?

[andyps]

ferrisbueller said:

Reports of Murray making a modern day F1 with an NA V12.

Will this come to fruition? Does anyone have any insider information?

I saw this earlier - https://twitter.com/harrym_vids/status/11361510627...

And now this - http://www.gordonmurraydesign.com/en/?cultureKey=e...