Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[flemke]

The3rdDukeofB said:

flemke said:

The3rdDukeofB said:

I feel that the 'achievement' of the VMAx is not the whole 'amazing' thing about the car and what has been achieved - it is the fact that it is done in a relatively comfortable and cosseted car - that requires no tolerance to it being 'a car' first and foremost that can simply be driven around in - rather than crawling through a roll bar, on a CF thin cradle seat and without sound deadening.

One hell of an achievement

I agree that the Veyron/Chiron project is one hell of an engineering achievement. I do think however that your references to roll bars, thin CF seats and lack of sound deadening are irrelevancies. Vmax is a function of BHP in relation to frontal area and drag (with the marginal influence of rolling resistance). Whether the interior of the car has roll bars, thin seats or sound deadening has nothing to do with Vmax. With enough bhp, a Mercedes S-class could go faster than the Chiron.

I think you are coming from it at a different angle - AFAIK there is nothing as benign to drive, in comfort, without the usual compromises that are married with a fast car, like the Chiron.

Is the inside of an 'Egg anyway as comfortable and luxurious as a Chiron for example? or does the owner have to live with the scaffolding?

There are loads of more-than-fast-enough cars that are as comfortable as (if not more so than) and as luxurious as a Chiron. Most of them also have more leg room than the Chiron and some storage space as well.
As I have said on this thread numerous times, I respect greatly what the VAG engineers achieved with the Veyron. At the same time, I think the exercise was not entirely but essentially pointless. How many owners have driven the Veyron/Chiron at speeds that required the "Top Speed Key", save in the completely artificial circumstances at Ehra Lessien which requires a special appointment made long in advance?

[epom]

Did anyone ever max a 335d ?

[Sway]

epom said:

Did anyone ever max a 335d ?

Remapped? No.

It was like the EE Lightning. Still accelerating as it ran out of fuel...

[E65Ross]

Sway said:

epom said:

Did anyone ever max a 335d ?

Remapped? No.

It was like the EE Lightning. Still accelerating as it ran out of fuel...

I would love for someone to edit that Chiron video so when Andy Wallace looks to the GPS monitor (where it looks like he looks in the rear view mirror) for a 335d to come past him

[Dynamic Space Wizard]

flemke said:

p1stonhead said:

E65Ross said:

flemke said:

p1stonhead said:

flemke said:

WCZ said:

flemke said:

I think the sense of cheekiness comes from the fact that, when you're already making big sacrifices in order to build the world's fastest (in Vmax) production car, what is the point of bending the rules in order to get a measly couple of mph more? It already is what it is.

what are the big sacrifices of the chiron? I don't see any

Off the top of my head,
In order to achieve the high speeds:
- turbocharging,
- vastly more BHP than could be used in road driving,
- immense cooling demands,
- special tyres required the only purpose of which is to cope with the Vmax,
- compromised packaging because of the space consumed by the huge engine and all the radiators,
- 600 kgs more weight than should be necessary.

Any of those actually noticiable day to day/to the average person driving one? I dont think any of them would be.

Its not like a Chiron owner wont have some other lightweight special tucked away somewhere.

It does not make Car A any better because the owner may also have a superior Car B in the garage.

But cars are built to serve different purposes and different desires. If you want a car to be a great long distance and quiet comfortable car to be ferried about in the back of on a long motorway drive, a McLaren F1 is a pretty lousy car compared to a Rolls Royce Phantom. That doesn't mean the F1 is a bad car though. Its USP is different. The Chiron is to be bonkers fast in a straight line whilst still being quiet, comfortable and luxurious. For that, it's probably better than the F1. If you want a raw, thrilling driving experience, the F1 is the better car.

This. The Chiron is the best at the world at what it’s designed for. Other cars are better for other things.

My Mondeo estate is better for humping st to the dump. It’s literally a better car than a Chiron - at that

Understood. I think the point is that what the Chiron is designed for is a stupid thing.

Well that's a good thing isn't it? Who wants to be boring?

[Dr Gitlin]

flemke said:

When you say, "they might as well have done exactly what they've done and gone for 300 mph because why the hell not?", the same point can be made about any human action: why the hell not? To which a reply often may be, "Why the hell do it in the first place?"
First we had 400 kph. Okay, fine, a big round number.
Now we have another big round number, which exists only because some in the automotive media use the metric system and others the imperial system.
What's next? In the same way that we have different time zones based on longitude, and further non-hourly variations in such places as India, Newfoundland and Nepal, might there be a country that measures in neither kph nor mph but on another scale? Will Volkswagen's next target be the next big round number on that third scale?
Volkswagen set out to make a production road car with the world's highest Vmax, with an utterly arbitrary target of 400 kph. They achieved that, by doing some superb engineering that required the compromises that I mentioned above. Although it might be an interesting historical footnote that, having done that, they made a slightly faster one for the sole purpose of being able to sell another 450 units and make back in profit everything that they lost on the first one, in the greater scheme of things the Vmax of the Chiron is pretty meaningless - just as the Veyron's was and just as the F1's was.

Considering that Bugatti is in Europe and therefore uses metric, and that most of their customers also use metric, I am still surprised they didn't try for an extra 9.6km/h so at least the car could have broken the 500km/h barrier. Because right now it's at 490.5km/h.

[Dr Gitlin]

flemke said:

There are loads of more-than-fast-enough cars that are as comfortable as (if not more so than) and as luxurious as a Chiron. Most of them also have more leg room than the Chiron and some storage space as well.
As I have said on this thread numerous times, I respect greatly what the VAG engineers achieved with the Veyron. At the same time, I think the exercise was not entirely but essentially pointless. How many owners have driven the Veyron/Chiron at speeds that required the "Top Speed Key", save in the completely artificial circumstances at Ehra Lessien which requires a special appointment made long in advance?

Not going to lie, if I had a Chiron/Veyron/Diva you can bet the first thing I'd have done after signing the order contract was to tell them to find me a date to go Vmax it at Ehra-Lessien.

[p1stonhead]

Dr Gitlin said:

flemke said:

There are loads of more-than-fast-enough cars that are as comfortable as (if not more so than) and as luxurious as a Chiron. Most of them also have more leg room than the Chiron and some storage space as well.
As I have said on this thread numerous times, I respect greatly what the VAG engineers achieved with the Veyron. At the same time, I think the exercise was not entirely but essentially pointless. How many owners have driven the Veyron/Chiron at speeds that required the "Top Speed Key", save in the completely artificial circumstances at Ehra Lessien which requires a special appointment made long in advance?

Not going to lie, if I had a Chiron/Veyron/Diva you can bet the first thing I'd have done after signing the order contract was to tell them to find me a date to go Vmax it at Ehra-Lessien.

+1!

[Caddyshack]

Dr Gitlin said:

flemke said:

When you say, "they might as well have done exactly what they've done and gone for 300 mph because why the hell not?", the same point can be made about any human action: why the hell not? To which a reply often may be, "Why the hell do it in the first place?"
First we had 400 kph. Okay, fine, a big round number.
Now we have another big round number, which exists only because some in the automotive media use the metric system and others the imperial system.
What's next? In the same way that we have different time zones based on longitude, and further non-hourly variations in such places as India, Newfoundland and Nepal, might there be a country that measures in neither kph nor mph but on another scale? Will Volkswagen's next target be the next big round number on that third scale?
Volkswagen set out to make a production road car with the world's highest Vmax, with an utterly arbitrary target of 400 kph. They achieved that, by doing some superb engineering that required the compromises that I mentioned above. Although it might be an interesting historical footnote that, having done that, they made a slightly faster one for the sole purpose of being able to sell another 450 units and make back in profit everything that they lost on the first one, in the greater scheme of things the Vmax of the Chiron is pretty meaningless - just as the Veyron's was and just as the F1's was.

Considering that Bugatti is in Europe and therefore uses metric, and that most of their customers also use metric, I am still surprised they didn't try for an extra 9.6km/h so at least the car could have broken the 500km/h barrier. Because right now it's at 490.5km/h.

As flemke said earlier, vmax is frontal area and power issue, the problem is that you need umpteenth more power-er extra 1 kph and then gearing issues. You would be amazed at how much extra horsepower 5mph would take at 300 mph, someone can do the maths but I am sure 400 bhp might not be enough

[Caddyshack]

At 300 mph the car is using over 1500 bhp to overcome just the drag. To add more power you need more cooling which adds more drag.

[stevesingo]

Drag being equal, may maths says an extra 296bhp (+19%) would be required to get to 500kph (+2%)

Edited by stevesingo on Thursday 5th September 20:17

[flemke]

stevesingo said:

Drag being equal, may maths says an extra 296bhp (+19%) would be required to get to 500kph (+2%)

Does one not need additional power equal to the additional Vmax cubed, or roughly a 6% increase in power for a ~2% increase in Vmax?

Eta: in other words, you cube 1.0196.

Edited by flemke on Friday 6th September 11:39

[flemke]

Dynamic Space Wizard said:

flemke said:

p1stonhead said:

E65Ross said:

flemke said:

p1stonhead said:

flemke said:

WCZ said:

flemke said:

I think the sense of cheekiness comes from the fact that, when you're already making big sacrifices in order to build the world's fastest (in Vmax) production car, what is the point of bending the rules in order to get a measly couple of mph more? It already is what it is.

what are the big sacrifices of the chiron? I don't see any

Off the top of my head,
In order to achieve the high speeds:
- turbocharging,
- vastly more BHP than could be used in road driving,
- immense cooling demands,
- special tyres required the only purpose of which is to cope with the Vmax,
- compromised packaging because of the space consumed by the huge engine and all the radiators,
- 600 kgs more weight than should be necessary.

Any of those actually noticiable day to day/to the average person driving one? I dont think any of them would be.

Its not like a Chiron owner wont have some other lightweight special tucked away somewhere.

It does not make Car A any better because the owner may also have a superior Car B in the garage.

But cars are built to serve different purposes and different desires. If you want a car to be a great long distance and quiet comfortable car to be ferried about in the back of on a long motorway drive, a McLaren F1 is a pretty lousy car compared to a Rolls Royce Phantom. That doesn't mean the F1 is a bad car though. Its USP is different. The Chiron is to be bonkers fast in a straight line whilst still being quiet, comfortable and luxurious. For that, it's probably better than the F1. If you want a raw, thrilling driving experience, the F1 is the better car.

This. The Chiron is the best at the world at what it’s designed for. Other cars are better for other things.

My Mondeo estate is better for humping st to the dump. It’s literally a better car than a Chiron - at that

Understood. I think the point is that what the Chiron is designed for is a stupid thing.

Well that's a good thing isn't it? Who wants to be boring?

Many people don't want to be boring, but is there a meaningful difference between driving a car (which is mostly driving itself) on a closed circuit at 260mph and at 300mph? If you covered the speedo, I doubt that one driver in ten would even recognise whether the road speed was 260 or 300. Most people who would do it would do it in order to brag to their friends about it, which strikes me as an empty motivation.

[p1stonhead]

flemke said:

Dynamic Space Wizard said:

flemke said:

p1stonhead said:

E65Ross said:

flemke said:

p1stonhead said:

flemke said:

WCZ said:

flemke said:

I think the sense of cheekiness comes from the fact that, when you're already making big sacrifices in order to build the world's fastest (in Vmax) production car, what is the point of bending the rules in order to get a measly couple of mph more? It already is what it is.

what are the big sacrifices of the chiron? I don't see any

Off the top of my head,
In order to achieve the high speeds:
- turbocharging,
- vastly more BHP than could be used in road driving,
- immense cooling demands,
- special tyres required the only purpose of which is to cope with the Vmax,
- compromised packaging because of the space consumed by the huge engine and all the radiators,
- 600 kgs more weight than should be necessary.

Any of those actually noticiable day to day/to the average person driving one? I dont think any of them would be.

Its not like a Chiron owner wont have some other lightweight special tucked away somewhere.

It does not make Car A any better because the owner may also have a superior Car B in the garage.

But cars are built to serve different purposes and different desires. If you want a car to be a great long distance and quiet comfortable car to be ferried about in the back of on a long motorway drive, a McLaren F1 is a pretty lousy car compared to a Rolls Royce Phantom. That doesn't mean the F1 is a bad car though. Its USP is different. The Chiron is to be bonkers fast in a straight line whilst still being quiet, comfortable and luxurious. For that, it's probably better than the F1. If you want a raw, thrilling driving experience, the F1 is the better car.

This. The Chiron is the best at the world at what it’s designed for. Other cars are better for other things.

My Mondeo estate is better for humping st to the dump. It’s literally a better car than a Chiron - at that

Understood. I think the point is that what the Chiron is designed for is a stupid thing.

Well that's a good thing isn't it? Who wants to be boring?

Many people don't want to be boring, but is there a meaningful difference between driving a car (which is mostly driving itself) on a closed circuit at 260mph and at 300mph? If you covered the speedo, I doubt that one driver in ten would even recognise whether the road speed was 260 or 300. Most people who would do it would do it in order to brag to their friends about it, which strikes me as an empty motivation.

What is a valid motivation for a car? 99.9999% of people just get in them to get to work. They are an appliance like a washing machine.

The Chiron is the best in the world at the thing they aimed for. No harm in that. Speed records have existed since forever.

[WCZ]

flemke said:

There are loads of more-than-fast-enough cars that are as comfortable as (if not more so than) and as luxurious as a Chiron. Most of them also have more leg room than the Chiron and some storage space as well.
As I have said on this thread numerous times, I respect greatly what the VAG engineers achieved with the Veyron. At the same time, I think the exercise was not entirely but essentially pointless. How many owners have driven the Veyron/Chiron at speeds that required the "Top Speed Key", save in the completely artificial circumstances at Ehra Lessien which requires a special appointment made long in advance?

some use the top speed key on the american desert runs that always attracts a few, most don't though.

there's nothing as ballistic as the chiron whilst maintaining comfort and the way it can actually get its power down is absolutely nuts.

you honestly should drive one if you get the chance

[Swampy1982]

I take a slightly different view on it, clearly it's nothing more than a marketing exercise on being first to 300. The interesting piece for me in the article is Bugatti saying now its complete, they "plan on concentrating on other aspects of its cars" (or words to that effect) which could signal a shift in top speed runs and end that era for them.

[AlmostUseful]

WCZ said:

there's nothing as ballistic as the chiron whilst maintaining comfort and the way it can actually get its power down is absolutely nuts.

you honestly should drive one if you get the chance

Whilst I love the idea of lightweight agile cars, if I won’t the lottery I’d have a Chiron/veyron on the list for sure. The interiors look a great place to be!

[flemke]

p1stonhead said:

What is a valid motivation for a car? 99.9999% of people just get in them to get to work. They are an appliance like a washing machine.

The Chiron is the best in the world at the thing they aimed for. No harm in that. Speed records have existed since forever.

"Valid" is an elusive descriptor implying a binary judgment of transcendent worth. I don't think validity matters in this context: one could argue that any human action, or at least any free transaction between willing parties, is valid.
I would prefer to use "respectable". I respect what the Veyron engineers did. I do not however respect the reasons why most people buy the car, nor do I respect how (I think) most Veyron owners drive, and, if you don't know how to drive, what exactly is the point of owning the world's fastest road car?

Yes, speed records have existed forever. I am not however aware of many production road cars that were designed with the highest priority being Vmax. Vmax is totally irrelevant to road driving and, at the same time, if a road car was designed with Vmax as its highest priority, other qualities as a road car must be compromised, as exampled on the previous page.

[flemke]

WCZ said:

flemke said:

There are loads of more-than-fast-enough cars that are as comfortable as (if not more so than) and as luxurious as a Chiron. Most of them also have more leg room than the Chiron and some storage space as well.
As I have said on this thread numerous times, I respect greatly what the VAG engineers achieved with the Veyron. At the same time, I think the exercise was not entirely but essentially pointless. How many owners have driven the Veyron/Chiron at speeds that required the "Top Speed Key", save in the completely artificial circumstances at Ehra Lessien which requires a special appointment made long in advance?

some use the top speed key on the american desert runs that always attracts a few, most don't though.

there's nothing as ballistic as the chiron whilst maintaining comfort and the way it can actually get its power down is absolutely nuts.

you honestly should drive one if you get the chance

I have not driven a Chiron. I have driven several Veyrons. I appreciate that the Chiron is a better driving machine than the Veyron, but I cannot get over its ugliness. The Veyron was no thing of beauty, but at least the design hung together. With that big swooping "C" shape going up the A-pillar, over the door, coming down behind the door and finishing at the front wheel arch, the Chiron was doomed to look silly. And then to highlight it in raw metal!

[flemke]

Swampy1982 said:

I take a slightly different view on it, clearly it's nothing more than a marketing exercise on being first to 300. The interesting piece for me in the article is Bugatti saying now its complete, they "plan on concentrating on other aspects of its cars" (or words to that effect) which could signal a shift in top speed runs and end that era for them.

That sounds wise, but what would Bugatti do if another production road car were to break the Chiron's Vmax record?