Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
I guess that when you have a good collection of cars you do not feel the need to rush out and do a load of miles in the new car OR more likely you are able to afford the collection as you have tamed the immediate gratification?
I was frustrated and amazed when our Chinese friend (Flemke knows the one) had his F430 delivered to a guy we know to look after and he did not drive it for around 5 months....I would have been up at 6 a.m. waiting for them to open the day it arrived.
I was frustrated and amazed when our Chinese friend (Flemke knows the one) had his F430 delivered to a guy we know to look after and he did not drive it for around 5 months....I would have been up at 6 a.m. waiting for them to open the day it arrived.
flemke said:
650spider said:
johnwilliams77 said:
Nothing 'obvious' about it - don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.
Mmm...i remember the large amount of posts made when McLaren announced the 675LT spider, having a go because it was only supposed to be the 675 LT coupe therefore diluting the values ( and rarity ).Its like the guys that bang on about getting an allocation of GT3's and GT3RS's Porsches that will be 'keepers'...then they get them, next thing you know about 6months later its up for sale with 200miles for a huge premium at an OPC...never seen the track or barely even the road.
Regardless of plans, when the Senna was announced it was seen almost as a blue chip investment.
Its a real shame when people get an allocation of hard to obtain cars and do 65 miles in a year before selling, regardless of the circumstances....i did more than 65 miles in the 1st hour of owning my Mac.
A local guy here got a Senna new and he tracks it all the time here and europe...i tip my hat to him.
Person A might want a GT3RS because he or she has a beloved collection of Porsches, and the purpose is to add the car to the collection.
Person B might want a GT3RS because he or she wants to drive it on the road, and looks down on the person who wants to add the car to a static collection.
Person C might want a GT3RS because he or she loves to do track days, and looks down on the road driver and the collector.
Person D might want a GT3RS because he or she wants to learn to be a racing driver, and looks down on the track day warrior, the road driver and the collector.
Person E might want a GT3RS because he or she is already an accomplished professional racing driver, and looks down on the wannabe racer, the track day warrior, the road driver and the collector.
I don't think it is up to the rest of us to declare that one type of owner is more legitimate than another. They all want genuinely to own the car.
The flipper is the opposite. He (or she) has no genuine interest in owning the car for any purpose. The idea is merely to jump ahead of the queue, deny someone with genuine interest the opportunity to buy the car at the normal price, and by doing so extort money from that person.
On this thread and elsewhere, I (and some others) have said repeatedly that it would be preferable if all manufacturers would build to demand, rather than trying to create artificial shortages that generate undeserved advantages for flippers at the expense of people who have genuine if diverse reasons for wanting to buy and keep a car. Everyone should have a fair crack at buying a car at the same price. In the years after the production run is finished, what happens to the value of the car should be up to normal market forces, without initial distortions unnecessarily created by games-playing manufacturers.
It's not only car makers that pull this stunt. It is probably happening across the board, but I am aware of its ludicrous application in such areas as ladies' handbags and teenagers' hoodies. In the '70s, an economist called Fred Hirsch coined the term "positional good" to classify a form of consumption that was valued not on the intrinsic qualities of the consumed object (or experience) itself but rather on the fact that it was not (even in theory) available to everyone, and possession of it conferred on the owner a hierarchical status above that of all those who did not possess it. Purveyors of "limited edition" goods and services are seeking to exploit that. It is legal and part of a free market, but it is also distasteful.
Buyer A,B,C,D & E are no different from the 'flipper' if after 65 miles they decide to sell the hard to obtain or 'blue chip' car for more than the actual price that they paid....if they want to be classed differently as the "flipper', offer it for sale at list....it's never going to happen so there is no difference.
Not having a go Flemke, i just cannot see any other way of looking at it.
I am guessing if yours is up for sale on SOR it shall be at what you paid plus the dealers fee?
650spider said:
flemke said:
650spider said:
johnwilliams77 said:
Nothing 'obvious' about it - don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.
Mmm...i remember the large amount of posts made when McLaren announced the 675LT spider, having a go because it was only supposed to be the 675 LT coupe therefore diluting the values ( and rarity ).Its like the guys that bang on about getting an allocation of GT3's and GT3RS's Porsches that will be 'keepers'...then they get them, next thing you know about 6months later its up for sale with 200miles for a huge premium at an OPC...never seen the track or barely even the road.
Regardless of plans, when the Senna was announced it was seen almost as a blue chip investment.
Its a real shame when people get an allocation of hard to obtain cars and do 65 miles in a year before selling, regardless of the circumstances....i did more than 65 miles in the 1st hour of owning my Mac.
A local guy here got a Senna new and he tracks it all the time here and europe...i tip my hat to him.
Person A might want a GT3RS because he or she has a beloved collection of Porsches, and the purpose is to add the car to the collection.
Person B might want a GT3RS because he or she wants to drive it on the road, and looks down on the person who wants to add the car to a static collection.
Person C might want a GT3RS because he or she loves to do track days, and looks down on the road driver and the collector.
Person D might want a GT3RS because he or she wants to learn to be a racing driver, and looks down on the track day warrior, the road driver and the collector.
Person E might want a GT3RS because he or she is already an accomplished professional racing driver, and looks down on the wannabe racer, the track day warrior, the road driver and the collector.
I don't think it is up to the rest of us to declare that one type of owner is more legitimate than another. They all want genuinely to own the car.
The flipper is the opposite. He (or she) has no genuine interest in owning the car for any purpose. The idea is merely to jump ahead of the queue, deny someone with genuine interest the opportunity to buy the car at the normal price, and by doing so extort money from that person.
On this thread and elsewhere, I (and some others) have said repeatedly that it would be preferable if all manufacturers would build to demand, rather than trying to create artificial shortages that generate undeserved advantages for flippers at the expense of people who have genuine if diverse reasons for wanting to buy and keep a car. Everyone should have a fair crack at buying a car at the same price. In the years after the production run is finished, what happens to the value of the car should be up to normal market forces, without initial distortions unnecessarily created by games-playing manufacturers.
It's not only car makers that pull this stunt. It is probably happening across the board, but I am aware of its ludicrous application in such areas as ladies' handbags and teenagers' hoodies. In the '70s, an economist called Fred Hirsch coined the term "positional good" to classify a form of consumption that was valued not on the intrinsic qualities of the consumed object (or experience) itself but rather on the fact that it was not (even in theory) available to everyone, and possession of it conferred on the owner a hierarchical status above that of all those who did not possess it. Purveyors of "limited edition" goods and services are seeking to exploit that. It is legal and part of a free market, but it is also distasteful.
Buyer A,B,C,D & E are no different from the 'flipper' if after 65 miles they decide to sell the hard to obtain or 'blue chip' car for more than the actual price that they paid....if they want to be classed differently as the "flipper', offer it for sale at list....it's never going to happen so there is no difference.
Not having a go Flemke, i just cannot see any other way of looking at it.
I am guessing if yours is up for sale on SOR it shall be at what you paid plus the dealers fee?
The differences include:
- How long the buyer owned the car before offering for sale;
- Why the car was purchased in the first place;
- Whether the car was spec'd particular to the buyer's own tastes, or rather according to what was thought to be the most saleable to the next person; and
- Why the car has been put up for sale.
The details regarding the sales status of "my" car are private, but your guess in incorrect; you are coming at it from the wrong angle.
The result may be the same but I think the reasons make a big difference.
Firstly, you’d me mad to sell at list if they’re going for overs, nobody with the sort of means to buy a car like this is going to be stupid enough to let one go for less than they’re worth.
Secondly, you can grumble at a guy selling his car that he had delivered to America because he planned to move there, having had it painted to match his halo car and spec’d exactly as he wanted, only to not move to that country.
Firstly, you’d me mad to sell at list if they’re going for overs, nobody with the sort of means to buy a car like this is going to be stupid enough to let one go for less than they’re worth.
Secondly, you can grumble at a guy selling his car that he had delivered to America because he planned to move there, having had it painted to match his halo car and spec’d exactly as he wanted, only to not move to that country.
I’ve always found my reasons for selling are either I need the money for something else or I don’t have the time to use the car as I had originally intended. I suspect the former is not the case for our BFF Mr Flemke, but the latter might apply.
More F1 stories please. When you have the time.
More F1 stories please. When you have the time.
For any McLaren fans, CK Models (in Germany) are doing a decent discount on their 1/18 models at the moment:
https://ck-modelcars.de/en/l/a-18/teaser-2453/
(FINA livery for me
)
https://ck-modelcars.de/en/l/a-18/teaser-2453/
(FINA livery for me
)AlmostUseful said:
..only to not move to that country.
Flemke is staying in the UK? Did he state anywhere why he had changed his mind? Cant be the weather 
Or the speed cameras. America is (in my limited experience of the place) like the UK would be, if everything just worked. And there was no animosity towards people doing well for themselves. I can see why people try to live there.When the Senna was listed at New Jersey McLaren. I was reminded that the owner of 014
Lives not so far away from there in the Empire State.
I wondered if there's clusters of F1 owners in nicer parts of the world. Probably a few in Central London (Cesar and Harrods being the obvious ones) Probably a few in Geneva. (Kidston) Obviously UAE will feature a couple. California perhaps (Leno)
I think Flemke shares more than enough detail of his private life. The circumstances around the Senna aren't hard to piece together. For someone to question his reasons for selling and accuse him of profiteering feels a bit off. It would seem they've not read these threads or just want to take a pop. Ironically, he's arguably well positioned to be a flipper but doesn't choose to engage in it.
Oh please, this thread is on vol 5 so he is hardly the shy and retiring type! and besides probably 99.9% of the people who read this thread don't even know the guys real name, so its hardly snooping into his private life.
He is more than capable of defending his reasons, if he so chooses as to why it is ok for him to make a handsome profit on an unused car, whilst its not ok for others to make a living from doing exactly the same thing, without the sycophants jumping up and down if someone dare question such reasoning.
He is more than capable of defending his reasons, if he so chooses as to why it is ok for him to make a handsome profit on an unused car, whilst its not ok for others to make a living from doing exactly the same thing, without the sycophants jumping up and down if someone dare question such reasoning.
PAUL500 said:
Oh please, this thread is on vol 5 so he is hardly the shy and retiring type! and besides probably 99.9% of the people who read this thread don't even know the guys real name, so its hardly snooping into his private life.
He is more than capable of defending his reasons, if he so chooses as to why it is ok for him to make a handsome profit on an unused car, whilst its not ok for others to make a living from doing exactly the same thing, without the sycophants jumping up and down if someone dare question such reasoning.
A few posts above I stated the difference, which I think is crucial, between buying a car that one has no intention of keeping for even a short time and buying a car with the intention of keeping it for the foreseeable future. I also reiterated my wish that there be no such thing as artificially limited edition products, but that practice is if anything growing.He is more than capable of defending his reasons, if he so chooses as to why it is ok for him to make a handsome profit on an unused car, whilst its not ok for others to make a living from doing exactly the same thing, without the sycophants jumping up and down if someone dare question such reasoning.
To clarify what happened in my situation, I spec'd this car in early 2018. I think it is obvious that I spec'd it to my taste rather than with an eye towards what the general market or a future buyer would like. From the start it was always a US-spec car to be delivered to the US as soon as possible. The allocation was given to me directly by the factory, who left it to me to choose a dealer who would do the paperwork and other bureaucratic tasks. I chose a UK dealer out of loyalty to that dealer.
The plan was always to ship the car to the US as soon as it was PDI'd by the dealer. The car was paid for and delivered to that UK dealer in August 2018. As soon as I inspected the car at the dealer, I found that the factory had made a mistake with the spec. New parts had to be ordered, for which there was a six months' delay. In the meantime, the car was not legal to be registered for use or to be driven in the UK - hence the delivery mileage.
The car finally arrived in the US in early March. I had it delivered to a US McLaren dealer who did their own PDI and discovered a number of niggles that required rectification including another replacement part. That process took another three months, so now we were in June 2019. In the period between when I committed to buy the car in early '18 and when it was finally available to be driven in the country in which it was situated in June '19, my situation changed. It became clear that I would not be able to make use of the car for the foreseeable future. Whether the reason related to employment, medical circumstances, a desire to be in the UK, or something else is private and irrelevant to this thread.
In a chance conversation with a US friend, it turned out that he was interested in buying the car and so I sold it to him. Of course the details of our agreement are private, but to presume that a "handsome profit" was involved would be incorrect.
I think it is obvious the difference between the above and what the scenario would have been if I had bought the car with the intention of flipping it. Had I intended to flip it, I would have spec'd it in a different colour and trim, would have spec'd it with the glass panels rather than carbon in the doors, and would have got a straightforward UK-spec car to sell in the UK instead of undergoing the massive hassle of a private export. I also would not have waited a year to sell it, as anybody could see that the initial premium was not going to last.
Hurricane52 said:
More F1 stories please. When you have the time.
flemke said:
PAUL500 said:
Oh please, this thread is on vol 5 so he is hardly the shy and retiring type! and besides probably 99.9% of the people who read this thread don't even know the guys real name, so its hardly snooping into his private life.
He is more than capable of defending his reasons, if he so chooses as to why it is ok for him to make a handsome profit on an unused car, whilst its not ok for others to make a living from doing exactly the same thing, without the sycophants jumping up and down if someone dare question such reasoning.
A few posts above I stated the difference, which I think is crucial, between buying a car that one has no intention of keeping for even a short time and buying a car with the intention of keeping it for the foreseeable future. I also reiterated my wish that there be no such thing as artificially limited edition products, but that practice is if anything growing.He is more than capable of defending his reasons, if he so chooses as to why it is ok for him to make a handsome profit on an unused car, whilst its not ok for others to make a living from doing exactly the same thing, without the sycophants jumping up and down if someone dare question such reasoning.
To clarify what happened in my situation, I spec'd this car in early 2018. I think it is obvious that I spec'd it to my taste rather than with an eye towards what the general market or a future buyer would like. From the start it was always a US-spec car to be delivered to the US as soon as possible. The allocation was given to me directly by the factory, who left it to me to choose a dealer who would do the paperwork and other bureaucratic tasks. I chose a UK dealer out of loyalty to that dealer.
The plan was always to ship the car to the US as soon as it was PDI'd by the dealer. The car was paid for and delivered to that UK dealer in August 2018. As soon as I inspected the car at the dealer, I found that the factory had made a mistake with the spec. New parts had to be ordered, for which there was a six months' delay. In the meantime, the car was not legal to be registered for use or to be driven in the UK - hence the delivery mileage.
The car finally arrived in the US in early March. I had it delivered to a US McLaren dealer who did their own PDI and discovered a number of niggles that required rectification including another replacement part. That process took another three months, so now we were in June 2019. In the period between when I committed to buy the car in early '18 and when it was finally available to be driven in the country in which it was situated in June '19, my situation changed. It became clear that I would not be able to make use of the car for the foreseeable future. Whether the reason related to employment, medical circumstances, a desire to be in the UK, or something else is private and irrelevant to this thread.
In a chance conversation with a US friend, it turned out that he was interested in buying the car and so I sold it to him. Of course the details of our agreement are private, but to presume that a "handsome profit" was involved would be incorrect.
I think it is obvious the difference between the above and what the scenario would have been if I had bought the car with the intention of flipping it. Had I intended to flip it, I would have spec'd it in a different colour and trim, would have spec'd it with the glass panels rather than carbon in the doors, and would have got a straightforward UK-spec car to sell in the UK instead of undergoing the massive hassle of a private export. I also would not have waited a year to sell it, as anybody could see that the initial premium was not going to last.
S1KRR said:
When the Senna was listed at New Jersey McLaren. I was reminded that the owner of 014
Lives not so far away from there in the Empire State.
I wondered if there's clusters of F1 owners in nicer parts of the world. Probably a few in Central London (Cesar and Harrods being the obvious ones) Probably a few in Geneva. (Kidston) Obviously UAE will feature a couple. California perhaps (Leno)
At least a couple of other participants on this thread keep much better track than I do of the location of the cars. The last time I discussed this with the factory (which was probably about three years ago), there were almost as many F1s in the UK as in the US. The proportions were different, as about half the UK cars were GTRs, but we figured there were roughly two dozen cars in each country. Lives not so far away from there in the Empire State.
I wondered if there's clusters of F1 owners in nicer parts of the world. Probably a few in Central London (Cesar and Harrods being the obvious ones) Probably a few in Geneva. (Kidston) Obviously UAE will feature a couple. California perhaps (Leno)
In the US, there is a bit of a distribution (including Florida and Louisiana), but most are clustered around the NYC area (including Connecticut) or in California. The other area, as you say, is Middle East. I am not aware of any in London per se, although there may be. Ownership of both the Harrods and Cesar cars has changed hands in recent years.
Also, there are still several in and around Woking!
flemke said:
I am not aware of any in London per se, although there may be. Ownership of both the Harrods and Cesar cars has changed hands in recent years.
Both CES 4R & #069 did live together in Knightsbridge, unless he has sold them off within the last year or so. F1 TOO - #20 also seems to be in Central London
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