Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Author
Discussion

flemke

22,212 posts

186 months

Monday 13th January
quotequote all
ArgonautX said:
flemke said:
The car manufacturers never tell us whether they weigh the reference car with or without fire extinguisher, warning triangle, spare tools, puncture sealant, floor mats, sound system (if only optional). There is a specification for "fuel level", but that varies from one standard of kerb weight to another and is therefore misleading. One could argue that dry weight is a better reference than kerb weight, because at least we know that dry weight includes nothing.
The original, official numbers for F1s were dry weights. The guys at MSO tell me that, in practice with an almost full tank plus all the above paraphernalia, a normal F1 weighs between 1250 and 1280. That has been my experience too.
As for CGT, although mine was corner-weighted I don't have the numbers to hand. In 2004 Car & Driver weighed one and came up with 1430, which seems about right.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15132548/por...
Have you ever driven a Lamborghini Sesto Elemento? I vaguely remember they supposedly made 20 of them, but I never saw one in RL. Supposedly 999 kg, I'm guessing dry.
Nope; no interest in those cars. I gather that it is a track-only car, which makes any attempt to compare it to real road cars nugatory.

flemke

22,212 posts

186 months

Monday 13th January
quotequote all
Sway said:
ArgonautX said:
Have you ever driven a Lamborghini Sesto Elemento? I vaguely remember they supposedly made 20 of them, but I never saw one in RL. Supposedly 999 kg, I'm guessing dry.
I'd take any numbers like that from Lamborghini with an immense pinch of salt - especially when referring to a car made in such small numbers...
Agreed, but I just had a quick look at the description of the car and could see how they might get to that dry weight. No seats, air-con, sound system or carpet; carbon suspension parts (which are highly vulnerable to structural damage from stone-chipping, which is why they are never used in road cars); no side lights; probably no reversing light, fog light, indicators, or horn. Probably no air-bags or side impact structures, perhaps no silencing.
If you remove enough stuff that people actually want, eventually you can get down to nothing!

Sway

13,193 posts

143 months

Monday 13th January
quotequote all
flemke said:
Sway said:
ArgonautX said:
Have you ever driven a Lamborghini Sesto Elemento? I vaguely remember they supposedly made 20 of them, but I never saw one in RL. Supposedly 999 kg, I'm guessing dry.
I'd take any numbers like that from Lamborghini with an immense pinch of salt - especially when referring to a car made in such small numbers...
Agreed, but I just had a quick look at the description of the car and could see how they might get to that dry weight. No seats, air-con, sound system or carpet; carbon suspension parts (which are highly vulnerable to structural damage from stone-chipping, which is why they are never used in road cars); no side lights; probably no reversing light, fog light, indicators, or horn. Probably no air-bags or side impact structures, perhaps no silencing.
If you remove enough stuff that people actually want, eventually you can get down to nothing!
Very true!!

I'd still take a kilo pinch of salt, even so... wink

Oh, and meant to thank you for your tips on colour experiences - reached out to a local art group, and now have a couple of great 'colour charts' a couple of members made for me, using oils and gouache. At the moment, it's a challenge just trying to learn how to process what I'm seeing - but even so, I am absolutely adoring the beauty and vibrancy in the world, even under the UK's crap light in winter... beer

bolidemichael

1,713 posts

150 months

Monday 13th January
quotequote all
Glasgow was luminous one morning last
week.


isaldiri

5,083 posts

117 months

Tuesday 14th January
quotequote all
flemke said:
As for CGT, although mine was corner-weighted I don't have the numbers to hand. In 2004 Car & Driver weighed one and came up with 1430, which seems about right.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15132548/por...
Iirc the sport auto supertest car weighed around 1470kg and they do it with full fuel.

flemke

22,212 posts

186 months

Tuesday 14th January
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
flemke said:
As for CGT, although mine was corner-weighted I don't have the numbers to hand. In 2004 Car & Driver weighed one and came up with 1430, which seems about right.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15132548/por...
Iirc the sport auto supertest car weighed around 1470kg and they do it with full fuel.
Entirely credible. Over the years engineers have learned a huge amount about kinematics, damping, and tyre construction, which enable a car to feel lighter and more nimble than one would imagine. Yes, the CGT is now 15 years old, but the F1 is 25 years old, and in that ten-year interval Porsche figured out a few things.

pits

5,813 posts

139 months

Tuesday 14th January
quotequote all
One question that has been bugging me, and I've tried in vain to search for some form of answer, or even some information to see if I'm not going mad, I vaguely recall a silver F1 being given away, or someone won it on the very first televised national lottery.
Did that happen or am I going mad?
If it did happen, does anyone know what happened to it?

flemke

22,212 posts

186 months

Tuesday 14th January
quotequote all
pits said:
One question that has been bugging me, and I've tried in vain to search for some form of answer, or even some information to see if I'm not going mad, I vaguely recall a silver F1 being given away, or someone won it on the very first televised national lottery.
Did that happen or am I going mad?
If it did happen, does anyone know what happened to it?
There are people, including a couple who have posted here many times, who know more about the detailed history of the F1s than I do, but I have never heard any mention of such a thing. My guess is that it did not happen or, if it did, that the winner sold the allocation before the car was spec'd and produced and therefore was not thought of as an "owner".


Civpilot

6,018 posts

189 months

Tuesday 14th January
quotequote all
flemke said:
pits said:
One question that has been bugging me, and I've tried in vain to search for some form of answer, or even some information to see if I'm not going mad, I vaguely recall a silver F1 being given away, or someone won it on the very first televised national lottery.
Did that happen or am I going mad?
If it did happen, does anyone know what happened to it?
There are people, including a couple who have posted here many times, who know more about the detailed history of the F1s than I do, but I have never heard any mention of such a thing. My guess is that it did not happen or, if it did, that the winner sold the allocation before the car was spec'd and produced and therefore was not thought of as an "owner".
I have a vague recollection of a lottery related show where they had an F1 on display in the studio as more of a ‘here is what you could afford’ type of set dressing?

Could that be what you are thinking of?

PAUL500

1,564 posts

195 months

Tuesday 14th January
quotequote all
I recall a rather dubious character winning the lottery and going out and buying a silver F1, plus things like helicopters etc and gaining a lot of publicity, pretty sure he then got banged up for something and had to sell it all.

It was the early days of the lottery.

I don't mean the dodgy accountant who had a road car and a race car or the lottery lout.

edit

This guy

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/lottery...

Edited by PAUL500 on Tuesday 14th January 13:53

hurstg01

2,677 posts

192 months

Tuesday 14th January
quotequote all
flemke said:
pits said:
One question that has been bugging me, and I've tried in vain to search for some form of answer, or even some information to see if I'm not going mad, I vaguely recall a silver F1 being given away, or someone won it on the very first televised national lottery.
Did that happen or am I going mad?
If it did happen, does anyone know what happened to it?
There are people, including a couple who have posted here many times, who know more about the detailed history of the F1s than I do, but I have never heard any mention of such a thing . My guess is that it did not happen or, if it did, that the winner sold the allocation before the car was spec'd and produced and therefore was not thought of as an "owner".
me neither confused

PAUL500 said:
I recall a rather dubious character winning the lottery and going out and buying a silver F1, plus things like helicopters etc and gaining a lot of publicity, pretty sure he then got banged up for something and had to sell it all.

It was the early days of the lottery.

I don't mean the dodgy accountant who had a road car and a race car or the lottery lout.

edit

This guy

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/lottery...

Edited by PAUL500 on Tuesday 14th January 13:53
I recall the guy, but not the link to the F1, although helicopters, flash cars etc and a dodgy lifestyle ring a bell with him in the news from back then.....

Petrus1983

2,930 posts

111 months

Tuesday 14th January
quotequote all
PAUL500 said:
I recall a rather dubious character winning the lottery and going out and buying a silver F1, plus things like helicopters etc and gaining a lot of publicity, pretty sure he then got banged up for something and had to sell it all.

It was the early days of the lottery.

I don't mean the dodgy accountant who had a road car and a race car or the lottery lout.

edit

This guy

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/lottery...

Edited by PAUL500 on Tuesday 14th January 13:53
A quick Google search brings up a series of articles - this is the easiest way to sum them up “ But Ryan, now 54, ended up penniless following a series of misfortunes.”. Whatever he did/didn’t have he doesn’t have them now.

PAUL500

1,564 posts

195 months

Tuesday 14th January
quotequote all
The cogs have started whirring again, pretty sure there was a programme on tv about him and other winners, and in that program he was showing off the helicopter and a fleet of cars and he claimed next on the list was an F1 and they showed a silver example, I think however his partner then put a block on it, so he never actually bought one in the end. This was when they were still new out of the factory for £600k. I think it was his partner that was the actual winner and she won about £6 mil.

Then it all went pear shape for him. Proper flash Harry.

This was all pre internet so very little on google about it

AMVSVNick

6,557 posts

111 months

Wednesday 15th January
quotequote all
PAUL500 said:
The cogs have started whirring again, pretty sure there was a programme on tv about him and other winners, and in that program he was showing off the helicopter and a fleet of cars and he claimed next on the list was an F1 and they showed a silver example, I think however his partner then put a block on it, so he never actually bought one in the end. This was when they were still new out of the factory for £600k. I think it was his partner that was the actual winner and she won about £6 mil.

Then it all went pear shape for him. Proper flash Harry.

This was all pre internet so very little on google about it
Here you go.

It was indeed his girlfriends ticket. He however went on a huge spending spree within weeks of the win. As has been mentioned, mansion, many cars plus the helicopter. Several people around here knew/knew of him and couldn't understand how he even managed to get a license for the heli!!!

The final nail in the coffin was when he decided to go into the motor trade, "Boyz Toyz" on the Welford Road in Leicester. He pretty much purchased every super car available at the time with zero knowledge of the market. Flashing his cash I fear he may have paid a little more than the cars were worth wink

Fairly sure he'd done time before the win.


WCZ

7,422 posts

143 months

Wednesday 15th January
quotequote all
AMVSVNick said:
Here you go.

It was indeed his girlfriends ticket. He however went on a huge spending spree within weeks of the win. As has been mentioned, mansion, many cars plus the helicopter. Several people around here knew/knew of him and couldn't understand how he even managed to get a license for the heli!!!

The final nail in the coffin was when he decided to go into the motor trade, "Boyz Toyz" on the Welford Road in Leicester. He pretty much purchased every super car available at the time with zero knowledge of the market. Flashing his cash I fear he may have paid a little more than the cars were worth wink

Fairly sure he'd done time before the win.
intresting!

LeighW

1,873 posts

137 months

Wednesday 15th January
quotequote all
WCZ said:
AMVSVNick said:
Here you go.

It was indeed his girlfriends ticket. He however went on a huge spending spree within weeks of the win. As has been mentioned, mansion, many cars plus the helicopter. Several people around here knew/knew of him and couldn't understand how he even managed to get a license for the heli!!!

The final nail in the coffin was when he decided to go into the motor trade, "Boyz Toyz" on the Welford Road in Leicester. He pretty much purchased every super car available at the time with zero knowledge of the market. Flashing his cash I fear he may have paid a little more than the cars were worth wink

Fairly sure he'd done time before the win.
intresting!
He was a convicted car thief at the time of the win. He bought a house in Osbaston, a friend of my mum lived nearby and told her that one of his charming party pieces was to set fire to £50 notes in front of people in the local pub. Ended up homeless I think. hehe

lauda

1,740 posts

156 months

Wednesday 15th January
quotequote all
flemke said:
The two cars were designed to quite different briefs, so you cannot necessarily say that one is "better" than the other.
At one stage, back in 2000, I thought about buying an F50 instead of an F1 (the F1 was my first choice, but at the time none was for sale anywhere). I went out to Bob Houghton's to see an F50 that he had for sale. I did not drive it.
There were things about the F50 that were very appealing (such as the engine and the seats), but the bonnet was too ugly and that monstrosity of a rear wing was just beyond the pale - it was a deal-breaker.
In general, I have found myself disagreeing with John Barker's car reviews probably more often than I have disagreed with the opinions of any other car reviewer. That doesn't mean that I'm right and he's wrong, but clearly we appreciate different things.

I'll offer an opinion on the F50 from a different expert. Back when the CGT was a new car, I was having dinner with that car's project manager. He was relating how he made some of the most fundamental decisions about the car.
He told me that, at first, Porsche were considering mounting the engine solidly to the chassis. To get a sense of how this would work in the real world, the project manager (IIRC, Michael Holscher) borrowed a customer's F50. He was loaned the car for an hour to drive around the German countryside.
He said that, after he had driven the F50 for only 15 minutes, it was obvious to him that "Porsche could not build a road car that was so harsh and unpleasant." He turned around and drove back to the starting point, handing back the car 30 minutes before it was due. He said that, although it might sound crazy that he would volunteer to give up the chance to drive an F50 for another half-hour, he was very happy to get out of the car and never have to get back into it again.
I can assure you that I have never felt that way about the F1!
Cheers flemke. Fascinating insight, as always. thumbup

Patrick Bateman

10,964 posts

123 months

Wednesday 15th January
quotequote all
Can't quite comprehend anyone having that outlook when getting a free shot of an F50 for an hour.

Murcielago_Boy

1,866 posts

188 months

Wednesday 15th January
quotequote all
lauda said:
flemke said:
The two cars were designed to quite different briefs, so you cannot necessarily say that one is "better" than the other.
At one stage, back in 2000, I thought about buying an F50 instead of an F1 (the F1 was my first choice, but at the time none was for sale anywhere). I went out to Bob Houghton's to see an F50 that he had for sale. I did not drive it.
There were things about the F50 that were very appealing (such as the engine and the seats), but the bonnet was too ugly and that monstrosity of a rear wing was just beyond the pale - it was a deal-breaker.
In general, I have found myself disagreeing with John Barker's car reviews probably more often than I have disagreed with the opinions of any other car reviewer. That doesn't mean that I'm right and he's wrong, but clearly we appreciate different things.

I'll offer an opinion on the F50 from a different expert. Back when the CGT was a new car, I was having dinner with that car's project manager. He was relating how he made some of the most fundamental decisions about the car.
He told me that, at first, Porsche were considering mounting the engine solidly to the chassis. To get a sense of how this would work in the real world, the project manager (IIRC, Michael Holscher) borrowed a customer's F50. He was loaned the car for an hour to drive around the German countryside.
He said that, after he had driven the F50 for only 15 minutes, it was obvious to him that "Porsche could not build a road car that was so harsh and unpleasant." He turned around and drove back to the starting point, handing back the car 30 minutes before it was due. He said that, although it might sound crazy that he would volunteer to give up the chance to drive an F50 for another half-hour, he was very happy to get out of the car and never have to get back into it again.
I can assure you that I have never felt that way about the F1!
Cheers flemke. Fascinating insight, as always. thumbup
I have to say, although I consider the CGT to be more or less the greatest drivers car of all time, I think that’s a bit of snobbiness from Porsche.

I’ve driven the F50 for rather more than just 30 minutes and the NVH is really nothing. It’s certainly not something which would be an unacceptable for a car of this type. I would hazard to say that the carbon ceramic clutch of the CGT makes the Porsche far more impractical than the F50.
Furthermore on cars of this type, at this level, some accommodation needs to be made about expectations for comfort.

In hindsight it was extremely brave of Ferrari to develop the configuration for the F50 that they did. It was totally uncompromising and bespoke and it pays off in the driving. That 4.7l V12 has nothing like the urge of the CGT but has even more pedigree and as a consequence, the driving experience is mind blowingly intense. The carbon seat is bolted to tub, is bolted to the engine, is bolted to the suspension which means you are bolted to the lot!
Let me tell you, when you get the F50 up towards is 8500rpm redline, it is pant-wettingly exciting. It really is. You’re not going that fast but it just so thrilling. Even the CGT has no answer here. (Enzo/LaFerrari are simply not comparable - the tech has taken over and they’re big step back for driver involvement).
Furthermore the F50 has such benign handling characteristics, and such a great gearbox, and with the right modified exhaust, an even more exciting exhaust note - it’s so easy to love immediately. The CGT is on another dynamic planet - and it’s built to a totally different standard too.

You need both really. And a Mclaren F1. Their like will not be built again.

PS, I’ve never driven a Diablo GT which has the same sort of recipe as those others. I wonder whether it’s similarly fantastic. But with only 80 made, I’ll have to buy one to drive it.









bolidemichael

1,713 posts

150 months

Wednesday 15th January
quotequote all
Murcielago_Boy said:
lauda said:
flemke said:
The two cars were designed to quite different briefs, so you cannot necessarily say that one is "better" than the other.
At one stage, back in 2000, I thought about buying an F50 instead of an F1 (the F1 was my first choice, but at the time none was for sale anywhere). I went out to Bob Houghton's to see an F50 that he had for sale. I did not drive it.
There were things about the F50 that were very appealing (such as the engine and the seats), but the bonnet was too ugly and that monstrosity of a rear wing was just beyond the pale - it was a deal-breaker.
In general, I have found myself disagreeing with John Barker's car reviews probably more often than I have disagreed with the opinions of any other car reviewer. That doesn't mean that I'm right and he's wrong, but clearly we appreciate different things.

I'll offer an opinion on the F50 from a different expert. Back when the CGT was a new car, I was having dinner with that car's project manager. He was relating how he made some of the most fundamental decisions about the car.
He told me that, at first, Porsche were considering mounting the engine solidly to the chassis. To get a sense of how this would work in the real world, the project manager (IIRC, Michael Holscher) borrowed a customer's F50. He was loaned the car for an hour to drive around the German countryside.
He said that, after he had driven the F50 for only 15 minutes, it was obvious to him that "Porsche could not build a road car that was so harsh and unpleasant." He turned around and drove back to the starting point, handing back the car 30 minutes before it was due. He said that, although it might sound crazy that he would volunteer to give up the chance to drive an F50 for another half-hour, he was very happy to get out of the car and never have to get back into it again.
I can assure you that I have never felt that way about the F1!
Cheers flemke. Fascinating insight, as always. thumbup
I have to say, although I consider the CGT to be more or less the greatest drivers car of all time, I think that’s a bit of snobbiness from Porsche.

I’ve driven the F50 for rather more than just 30 minutes and the NVH is really nothing. It’s certainly not something which would be an unacceptable for a car of this type. I would hazard to say that the carbon ceramic clutch of the CGT makes the Porsche far more impractical than the F50.
Furthermore on cars of this type, at this level, some accommodation needs to be made about expectations for comfort.

In hindsight it was extremely brave of Ferrari to develop the configuration for the F50 that they did. It was totally uncompromising and bespoke and it pays off in the driving. That 4.7l V12 has nothing like the urge of the CGT but has even more pedigree and as a consequence, the driving experience is mind blowingly intense. The carbon seat is bolted to tub, is bolted to the engine, is bolted to the suspension which means you are bolted to the lot!
Let me tell you, when you get the F50 up towards is 8500rpm redline, it is pant-wettingly exciting. It really is. You’re not going that fast but it just so thrilling. Even the CGT has no answer here. (Enzo/LaFerrari are simply not comparable - the tech has taken over and they’re big step back for driver involvement).
Furthermore the F50 has such benign handling characteristics, and such a great gearbox, and with the right modified exhaust, an even more exciting exhaust note - it’s so easy to love immediately. The CGT is on another dynamic planet - and it’s built to a totally different standard too.

You need both really. And a Mclaren F1. Their like will not be built again.

PS, I’ve never driven a Diablo GT which has the same sort of recipe as those others. I wonder whether it’s similarly fantastic. But with only 80 made, I’ll have to buy one to drive it.
What a fantastic post. You jammy sod.