Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
The shoe on the other foot.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/122187/mercedes-...
Nothing much seemed to come of this though.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/122187/mercedes-...
Nothing much seemed to come of this though.
janesmith1950 said:
I'd expect all the parties involved were knowledgeable enough of the various actors in F1 and where loyalties lay. Not to mention, back when all this was happening, I was firmly in the McLaren camp and found the FIA and Ferrari'sbehaviour abhorrent (I still reel from the barge boards ask those years ago).
In hindsight, considering how well they all knew both one another and the machinations in the sport, perhaps McLaren, by their continued presence, accepted that and the risks that go with it.
Ferrari have never wanted a level playing field in competition and what happened in 2007 doesn't seem to be an emergence of new behaviours, merely the victim on that occasion was both overt and McLaren.
In the event I were in a position to buy a new supercar (or whatever terminology you want to give it), I'd not rule out a Ferrari on the basis they behave and have behaved like the spoiled, vindictive brat we know they always have been. Perversely, depriving myself of something I'd otherwise want on the above basis, is possibly letting 'them' win!
Ironically, having said all of that, I find myself thinking that with Ross Brawn and Napoleon at the helm of the sport, and Ferrari with their current magic straight line speed, history is repeating!
I think what caught out Ron was, first, that he truly did not know that the drivers had been 'in the loop' with Coughlan and therefore he had (unknowingly and trivially) misled the WMSC at the first hearing. He was unaware of the vulnerability that was being created by McLaren's representations in July.In hindsight, considering how well they all knew both one another and the machinations in the sport, perhaps McLaren, by their continued presence, accepted that and the risks that go with it.
Ferrari have never wanted a level playing field in competition and what happened in 2007 doesn't seem to be an emergence of new behaviours, merely the victim on that occasion was both overt and McLaren.
In the event I were in a position to buy a new supercar (or whatever terminology you want to give it), I'd not rule out a Ferrari on the basis they behave and have behaved like the spoiled, vindictive brat we know they always have been. Perversely, depriving myself of something I'd otherwise want on the above basis, is possibly letting 'them' win!
Ironically, having said all of that, I find myself thinking that with Ross Brawn and Napoleon at the helm of the sport, and Ferrari with their current magic straight line speed, history is repeating!
Second, he never imagined that Mosley would be quite as gratuitously vicious as he turned out to be. I think literally everybody who was seriously following Formula One at the time was shocked by the size of the fine, so it would have been reasonable for Ron too never to have expected something so disproportionate. It is difficult to factor into one's expectations something that is, by orders of magnitude, unprecedented. As we saw with the case a few months earlier of Renault's engineers' having on their computers detailed engineering drawings that they knew had been stolen from McLaren, this sort of thing was par for the course and McLaren did not get the Police involved or try (at the time) to get Renault punished. McLaren did not like it, but they lived with it, just as other teams had done when Ferrari was exploiting IP illegitimately given to it.
In the first hearing, there was a quite funny exchange between Ron and Todt, Todt complained that, under the terms of a private agreement previously reached by McLaren, Williams and Ferrari, McLaren had been obliged to contact Ferrari, rather than the FIA, if they, McLaren, had concerns about something such as Ferrari's illegal floor.
Ron rejoined out that, a), when the agreement had been reached, McLaren proposed that it be made legally binding but Ferrari had refused and, b), by the time of the flexible floor revelation Ferrari had already breached the agreement anyhow.
I must say that, by refusing to buy a Ferrari because on principle I do not want to be associated with the organisation, I do not feel that I am making a huge sacrifice.
Re Brawn and Todt now being so influential in F1, I'm not sure that that favours Ferrari. Ross Brawn strikes me as being a man of integrity. Todt does not, but he had a major falling-out with Ferrari (you may recall how vociferously di Montezemolo opposed Todt's becoming FIA President) and I do not think he is looking to do Ferrari any favours now.
Sk00p said:
Brainpox said:
Just seen on reddit that Lewis Hamilton has chassis #44, sold a couple of years ago. Pretty cool.
https://redd.it/eskg6n
Front end looks a bit low in that video? https://redd.it/eskg6n
Well it works on superbikes
To Peloton/Erik
I assume you knew of Mr Hamiltons purchase at the time, but elected not to share until it was properly made public.
S1KRR said:
Sk00p said:
Brainpox said:
Just seen on reddit that Lewis Hamilton has chassis #44, sold a couple of years ago. Pretty cool.
https://redd.it/eskg6n
Front end looks a bit low in that video? https://redd.it/eskg6n
Well it works on superbikes
To Peloton/Erik
I assume you knew of Mr Hamiltons purchase at the time, but elected not to share until it was properly made public.
flemke said:
As standard, the ride height is 20mm lower at the front than at the back. If the car in the photo was braking (or the driver had lifted off), the difference would have been greater than that.
I think he's referring to the vid of Lewis in his recently acquired #044. It does look like the front is lower than usual. I assume that the 2 passengers he had (Father and Step Mother) wouldn't make the nose drop since they are positioned inside the wheelbase.
Click to emBIGen
I was just musing that the bike way to give quicker steering is to sharpen the headstock angle.
I wonder if he gets "mates rates" when it gets sent to Woking for service. Or perhaps he eschews McLaren completely and goes to Lanzante instead...
Edited by S1KRR on Saturday 25th January 15:23
S1KRR said:
flemke said:
As standard, the ride height is 20mm lower at the front than at the back. If the car in the photo was braking (or the driver had lifted off), the difference would have been greater than that.
I think he's referring to the vid of Lewis in his recently acquired #044. It does look like the front is lower than usual. I assume that the 2 passengers he had (Father and Step Mother) wouldn't make the nose drop since they are positioned inside the wheelbase.Click to emBIGen
I was just musing that the bike way to give quicker steering is to sharpen the headstock angle.
I wonder if he gets "mates rates" when it gets sent to Woking for service. Or perhaps he eschews McLaren completely and goes to Lanzante instead...
Edited by S1KRR on Saturday 25th January 15:23
Flemke, I so enjoy following your thread as I always find out something new about the F1 but now it's my turn to return the favour
Just found this while having a spring clear out
On the first few production cars the VIN number was laminated onto the surface of the front RH lower outrigger structural panel which was part of the chassis bonded assy. The VIN location is right under the RH passenger's right foot. I've been dead once and it was a long time ago so it maybe it's the LHS
We thought it was a secure way of attaching the VIN plate to the chassis but it wasn't nearly as secure as we'd thought
When Ron sold off his car in the production queue to an impatient customer I was asked to 'ring' the chassis so Ron could retain his lucky number, think it was chassis no. 9. We found it was possible to carefully pick out the stainless VIN plate and bond in a new one without damaging the carbon fibre laminate.
The picture is of a test trail I came up with where the stainless VIN plate is laminated between fibreglass plies making it impossible to remove without leaving a trace of damage. After this we changed the way we fitted the VIN
Just found this while having a spring clear out
On the first few production cars the VIN number was laminated onto the surface of the front RH lower outrigger structural panel which was part of the chassis bonded assy. The VIN location is right under the RH passenger's right foot. I've been dead once and it was a long time ago so it maybe it's the LHS
We thought it was a secure way of attaching the VIN plate to the chassis but it wasn't nearly as secure as we'd thought
When Ron sold off his car in the production queue to an impatient customer I was asked to 'ring' the chassis so Ron could retain his lucky number, think it was chassis no. 9. We found it was possible to carefully pick out the stainless VIN plate and bond in a new one without damaging the carbon fibre laminate.
The picture is of a test trail I came up with where the stainless VIN plate is laminated between fibreglass plies making it impossible to remove without leaving a trace of damage. After this we changed the way we fitted the VIN
marine boy said:
Flemke, I so enjoy following your thread as I always find out something new about the F1 but now it's my turn to return the favour
Just found this while having a spring clear out
On the first few production cars the VIN number was laminated onto the surface of the front RH lower outrigger structural panel which was part of the chassis bonded assy. The VIN location is right under the RH passenger's right foot. I've been dead once and it was a long time ago so it maybe it's the LHS
We thought it was a secure way of attaching the VIN plate to the chassis but it wasn't nearly as secure as we'd thought
When Ron sold off his car in the production queue to an impatient customer I was asked to 'ring' the chassis so Ron could retain his lucky number, think it was chassis no. 9. We found it was possible to carefully pick out the stainless VIN plate and bond in a new one without damaging the carbon fibre laminate.
The picture is of a test trail I came up with where the stainless VIN plate is laminated between fibreglass plies making it impossible to remove without leaving a trace of damage. After this we changed the way we fitted the VIN
Very interesting, thank you.Just found this while having a spring clear out
On the first few production cars the VIN number was laminated onto the surface of the front RH lower outrigger structural panel which was part of the chassis bonded assy. The VIN location is right under the RH passenger's right foot. I've been dead once and it was a long time ago so it maybe it's the LHS
We thought it was a secure way of attaching the VIN plate to the chassis but it wasn't nearly as secure as we'd thought
When Ron sold off his car in the production queue to an impatient customer I was asked to 'ring' the chassis so Ron could retain his lucky number, think it was chassis no. 9. We found it was possible to carefully pick out the stainless VIN plate and bond in a new one without damaging the carbon fibre laminate.
The picture is of a test trail I came up with where the stainless VIN plate is laminated between fibreglass plies making it impossible to remove without leaving a trace of damage. After this we changed the way we fitted the VIN
So engineering-driven, Rational Ron felt the need to retain his "lucky number", eh? I would not have guessed that!
On the cars, including mine, where I have seen the # is where (I think) you describe, but it's been either cast or engraved in the resin, so it is pretty permanent. It is located elsewhere too, but that place is the default reference. MSO keep track of the several different serial numbers on each car (engine, transaxle, tub, ECU). Put it this way - anyone who tried to create a counterfeit or replica F1 would not get far.
marine boy said:
Amazing insight into McLaren History including throw-away-comment
I've been dead once
Are we to take the latter part of the above quote as a literal statement? If so, you know you can't just leave the titbit there without question, Shirley?!
Obviously if I am being too nosy and its not something you wish to share, then please ignore me! If it was a literal statement you certainly seem to have good humour about it - given the context it was dropped in!
flemke said:
Very interesting, thank you.
So engineering-driven, Rational Ron felt the need to retain his "lucky number", eh? I would not have guessed that!
On the cars, including mine, where I have seen the # is where (I think) you describe, but it's been either cast or engraved in the resin, so it is pretty permanent. It is located elsewhere too, but that place is the default reference. MSO keep track of the several different serial numbers on each car (engine, transaxle, tub, ECU). Put it this way - anyone who tried to create a counterfeit or replica F1 would not get far.
Your welcome!So engineering-driven, Rational Ron felt the need to retain his "lucky number", eh? I would not have guessed that!
On the cars, including mine, where I have seen the # is where (I think) you describe, but it's been either cast or engraved in the resin, so it is pretty permanent. It is located elsewhere too, but that place is the default reference. MSO keep track of the several different serial numbers on each car (engine, transaxle, tub, ECU). Put it this way - anyone who tried to create a counterfeit or replica F1 would not get far.
Just 'Googled' McLaren F1 XP5, turns out it was the car that set the production land speed record, mine must have been a spare VIN plate
Think someone would go bankrupt building a replica F1, would be so much cheaper to buy a real one
I also found a chopped up section through the Harrods GTR carbon door frame, can post a picture if anyone is interested.
Found it hiding in a bottom drawer along with a cut section of Buttons front wishbone after his huge Monaco crash in the Honda
Recently when talking with an ex-McLaren guy I hadn't worked he mentioned the final wedge between Gordon and Ron was because a complete GTR car with engine ended up at Mercedes for the company to use as a test mule for CLK-GTR. Can't really comment on how true this was but knowing Gordon is a man of principles and plays a straight game I can believe their is some truth to the story
https://historicmotorsportcentral.com/2015/02/23/f...
marine boy said:
The picture is of a test trail I came up with where the stainless VIN plate is laminated between fibreglass plies making it impossible to remove without leaving a trace of damage. After this we changed the way we fitted the VIN
Hi Marine boy, I think you may be the horses mouth I been hoping to talk to, even if you are in fact dead. I have a long outstanding question about the eyebrow slots and their cover panels, the original concept sketches showed these were for radiator air outlet but I am assumming that the subsequent aero testing proved this didn't work and only the clinic model ever had these vents? here is XP1 being fitted out and there is no slot in the recess;
however later in production the slots are there, do you know what function they had, I have always assummed they are for headlight adjustment?
Thanks!
Edited by F1natic on Monday 27th January 21:15
marine boy said:
Think someone would go bankrupt building a replica F1, would be so much cheaper to buy a real one
definitely true if the specification was the same.marine boy said:
I also found a chopped up section through the Harrods GTR carbon door frame, can post a picture if anyone is interested.
Yes please, definitely interested! Also do you know how much was chopped out of the windscreen to make room for the front wheel movement on the GTR? It looks like a very tight fit in the road car also.
F1natic said:
Hi Marine boy, I think you may be the horses mouth I been hoping to talk to, even if you are in fact dead. I have a long outstanding question about the eyebrow slots and their cover panels, the original concept sketches showed these were for radiator air outlet but I am assumming that the subsequent aero testing proved this didn't work and only the clinic model ever had these vents?
here is XP1 being fitted out and there is no slot in the recess;
however later in production the slots are there, do you know what function they had, I have always assummed they are for headlight adjustment?
Thanks!
^^^^^ That's me, you've posted a picture of my best side! here is XP1 being fitted out and there is no slot in the recess;
however later in production the slots are there, do you know what function they had, I have always assummed they are for headlight adjustment?
Thanks!
Edited by F1natic on Monday 27th January 21:15
The Monaco launch car had the slots, guess the front bodywork I'm holding up must be for one of the prototypes before it was found it wasn't required
I'm assuming the idea behind the slot wasn't for headlight adjustment but to reduce front lift by bleeding air from the high pressure front wheel arch area. From memory all the GTR's had holes/vents trimmed further behind this position for this exact reason
marine boy said:
flemke said:
Very interesting, thank you.
So engineering-driven, Rational Ron felt the need to retain his "lucky number", eh? I would not have guessed that!
On the cars, including mine, where I have seen the # is where (I think) you describe, but it's been either cast or engraved in the resin, so it is pretty permanent. It is located elsewhere too, but that place is the default reference. MSO keep track of the several different serial numbers on each car (engine, transaxle, tub, ECU). Put it this way - anyone who tried to create a counterfeit or replica F1 would not get far.
Your welcome!So engineering-driven, Rational Ron felt the need to retain his "lucky number", eh? I would not have guessed that!
On the cars, including mine, where I have seen the # is where (I think) you describe, but it's been either cast or engraved in the resin, so it is pretty permanent. It is located elsewhere too, but that place is the default reference. MSO keep track of the several different serial numbers on each car (engine, transaxle, tub, ECU). Put it this way - anyone who tried to create a counterfeit or replica F1 would not get far.
Just 'Googled' McLaren F1 XP5, turns out it was the car that set the production land speed record, mine must have been a spare VIN plate
Think someone would go bankrupt building a replica F1, would be so much cheaper to buy a real one
I also found a chopped up section through the Harrods GTR carbon door frame, can post a picture if anyone is interested.
Found it hiding in a bottom drawer along with a cut section of Buttons front wishbone after his huge Monaco crash in the Honda
Recently when talking with an ex-McLaren guy I hadn't worked he mentioned the final wedge between Gordon and Ron was because a complete GTR car with engine ended up at Mercedes for the company to use as a test mule for CLK-GTR. Can't really comment on how true this was but knowing Gordon is a man of principles and plays a straight game I can believe their is some truth to the story
https://historicmotorsportcentral.com/2015/02/23/f...
Re the falling out between the two men, there were multiple issues, but my understanding is that there was a serious difference of opinion on how a certain contract should be interpreted - by letter or by spirit.
I popped into d:class to collect some 944 seats that were being re-upholstered
as I was chatting away to the owner, David, he was giving more detail on the increasing workload that they are taking on. They're a quality outfit that are currently just the right size. He pointed out some of the work they do and one of the jobs was for the central seat for chassis #45
as I was chatting away to the owner, David, he was giving more detail on the increasing workload that they are taking on. They're a quality outfit that are currently just the right size. He pointed out some of the work they do and one of the jobs was for the central seat for chassis #45
bolidemichael said:
I popped into d:class to collect some 944 seats that were being re-upholstered
as I was chatting away to the owner, David, he was giving more detail on the increasing workload that they are taking on. They're a quality outfit that are currently just the right size. He pointed out some of the work they do and one of the jobs was for the central seat for chassis #45
Yes, for the last several years they have done retrimming of F1s and P1s for MSO.as I was chatting away to the owner, David, he was giving more detail on the increasing workload that they are taking on. They're a quality outfit that are currently just the right size. He pointed out some of the work they do and one of the jobs was for the central seat for chassis #45
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