Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
thegreenhell said:
It's no secret that GM personally headhunted HD to get the F1 into production. GM was a bit of a fan of the Midas sportscar that HD had developed, in particular the build quality of its composite monocoque bodyshell, and had even done some aero work on a later iteration of that car.
flemke said:
.. And I defy anyone to tell me that my car with its Crono wheels and bigger tyres filling out the wheel arches does not look better than the standard car...
...In terms of both financial value and specialness, my first choice would be the GTR that won Le Mans. My second choice would be XP5 (which I once enquired about but was told was not for sale).
IMO those are the two best F1s. Apart from them, I genuinely do prefer mine to all others.
I agree, your wheels are good, since they don't make the car look "over wheeled"...In terms of both financial value and specialness, my first choice would be the GTR that won Le Mans. My second choice would be XP5 (which I once enquired about but was told was not for sale).
IMO those are the two best F1s. Apart from them, I genuinely do prefer mine to all others.
Hasn't XP5 done something like 100 thousand miles now! Bet it feels a bit tired.
Wait until Zac Brown gets desperate for money, then he'll sell off that GTR. (Though ISTR the Ueno Clinic guy would probably get first refusal)
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
Perchance, was it your F1 on Top Gear tonight?
Was 069, not Flemkes.
Edited by S1KRR on Sunday 2nd February 21:06
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
Perchance, was it your F1 on Top Gear tonight?
I don't watch Top Gear, which I have always found unbearable (no offence to Chris). Unless the show had some way of taking my car without my knowledge, using it, and then putting it back (I saw in two days ago at MSO), I don't believe that they used my car in whatever they did.Going back 10-15 years, it used to be tougher for the media to get access to F1s than it has been in recent years. On one or (I think it was) two occasions Top Gear asked if they could borrow my car for their program. Having heard that they tended (at least in those days under a different regime) to be abusive to borrowed cars, I saw no reason to lend them mine and thus I declined. Have never regretted that decision!
S1KRR said:
Hasn't XP5 done something like 100 thousand miles now! Bet it feels a bit tired.
I think it's done about 90,000, but I don't see that as an issue. The car has been well-maintained.Paul Rosche himself said that an F1 engine would not need to be rebuilt before it had been driven "at least 250,000 km", so it should be fine. The engines are not even fully bedded-in and at optimal performance before 20,000 miles.
I would always rather have a high-mileage car that has been driven and maintained properly than an old delivery-miles example that has sat idle for twenty years. Inactivity is bad for a car.
flemke said:
b) Yes, I would modify it, especially as now I know exactly what to do ( 
)
This sparked a question from myself. Apologies if it's been asked before but I've dipped in and out of the thread over the years. ) What was the first alteration you did to your F1? And I suppose closely related to that question, how far into your ownership was it?
I'd imagine it'd be much harder for a new owner of an F1 to have the guts to alter a bone stock car with the current values, but I wonder if it still happens?
It obviously makes a big difference what the modification is and how reversible that is. I'm thinking more mechanical changes rather than paint/interior retrims.
STIfree said:
flemke said:
b) Yes, I would modify it, especially as now I know exactly what to do ( )
This sparked a question from myself. Apologies if it's been asked before but I've dipped in and out of the thread over the years. ) What was the first alteration you did to your F1? And I suppose closely related to that question, how far into your ownership was it?
I'd imagine it'd be much harder for a new owner of an F1 to have the guts to alter a bone stock car with the current values, but I wonder if it still happens?
It obviously makes a big difference what the modification is and how reversible that is. I'm thinking more mechanical changes rather than paint/interior retrims.
A big percentage of the cars have been repainted, retrimmed or both, some a few times. It is common for a new owner to have the cosmetics of the car changed to his/her preferences; the new owner doesn't care whether what he's buying has been changed before if he is going to change it again.
I am not sure what I changed first, but the first winter after I bought it, when I had owned it for about 10 months, I had them change the paint and the trimming. The factory offer a few upgrades (a/c; headlamps, free-flowing exhaust) which they did at that time. Later that year I started to ask the factory if they could help me to sort out the behaviours of the car that I did not like. We worked on some of it together, but after about six months it became clear that as far as they were willing to go was not as far as I thought we needed to go, and that was when I embarked independently on a project to improve the handling and braking. That began in earnest about 2½ years after I bought the car.
Fascinating posts - no wonder this thread is so enduring.
Flemke, with the F1 lacking computer controlled stability or traction control are there any special techniques used if the rear end steps out? (other than subconsciously backing off and countersteering!). I am curious about the effect of the engine braking on the handling, not on a public road but in a controlled environment like the Nurburgring nordschleife. My personal experience is a sideways vehicle re-establishes grip rapidly when the clutch is pushed in (no brakes) as all traction is used for steering and cornering, however I was not driving a large capacity V12.
Also how does the Mclaren behave if the throttle is released suddenly mid corner? Given its propensity to shed revs "off throttle" does the engine contribute a lot of engine braking? Have the lateral stiffness improvements with the suspension and tires changed how the car reacts to a sudden midcorner lift off, or are the dynamics (weight treanfer, pitch change etc) the same but cornering capacity and feedback improved?
Summary of question; what happens in the scary moments?
Flemke, with the F1 lacking computer controlled stability or traction control are there any special techniques used if the rear end steps out? (other than subconsciously backing off and countersteering!). I am curious about the effect of the engine braking on the handling, not on a public road but in a controlled environment like the Nurburgring nordschleife. My personal experience is a sideways vehicle re-establishes grip rapidly when the clutch is pushed in (no brakes) as all traction is used for steering and cornering, however I was not driving a large capacity V12.
Also how does the Mclaren behave if the throttle is released suddenly mid corner? Given its propensity to shed revs "off throttle" does the engine contribute a lot of engine braking? Have the lateral stiffness improvements with the suspension and tires changed how the car reacts to a sudden midcorner lift off, or are the dynamics (weight treanfer, pitch change etc) the same but cornering capacity and feedback improved?
Summary of question; what happens in the scary moments?
Edited by F1natic on Tuesday 4th February 05:08
F1natic said:
Fascinating posts - no wonder this thread is so enduring.
Flemke, with the F1 lacking computer controlled stability or traction control are there any special techniques used if the rear end steps out? (other than subconsciously backing off and countersteering!). I am curious about the effect of the engine braking on the handling, not on a public road but in a controlled environment like the Nurburgring nordschleife. My personal experience is a sideways vehicle re-establishes grip rapidly when the clutch is pushed in (no brakes) as all traction is used for steering and cornering, however I was not driving a large capacity V12.
Also how does the Mclaren behave if the throttle is released suddenly mid corner? Given its propensity to shed revs "off throttle" does the engine contribute a lot of engine braking? Have the lateral stiffness improvements with the suspension and tires changed how the car reacts to a sudden midcorner lift off, or are the dynamics (weight treanfer, pitch change etc) the same but cornering capacity and feedback improved?
Summary of question; what happens in the scary moments?
The whole point of my project to change the suspension was to eliminate scary moments, and that has been successful. Flemke, with the F1 lacking computer controlled stability or traction control are there any special techniques used if the rear end steps out? (other than subconsciously backing off and countersteering!). I am curious about the effect of the engine braking on the handling, not on a public road but in a controlled environment like the Nurburgring nordschleife. My personal experience is a sideways vehicle re-establishes grip rapidly when the clutch is pushed in (no brakes) as all traction is used for steering and cornering, however I was not driving a large capacity V12.
Also how does the Mclaren behave if the throttle is released suddenly mid corner? Given its propensity to shed revs "off throttle" does the engine contribute a lot of engine braking? Have the lateral stiffness improvements with the suspension and tires changed how the car reacts to a sudden midcorner lift off, or are the dynamics (weight treanfer, pitch change etc) the same but cornering capacity and feedback improved?
Summary of question; what happens in the scary moments?
The car has a lump of weight in the middle and not much at either end, so a very low polar moment for a road car. It changes yaw quickly (although that is somewhat moderated by its long wheelbase). The standard tyres with much lateral deflection tended to exaggerate that trait. The fact that the rear tyres and the front tyres had different degrees of corner force stiffness made it worse.
The car would go from terminal understeer to snap oversteer pretty quickly - such as by the driver's lifting off when cornering. You might call that "engine braking", which is another way of saying the sudden removal of a lot of torque going to the driven rear wheels, which directly slows the car, which shifts the weight forward, etc. The relatively slow steering ratio and that long wheelbase mean that, if the car does start to think about going sideways, you must anticipate and intervene fast.
The car now is more predictable and also more stable; no longer are there big surprises. Total cornering force might be higher (although I don't think massively so; as we see in Formula One, you can generate a lot of grip with a tyre that deflects well), but there are no abrupt transitions and one generally knows where one is with the car, which did not used to be the case.
I normally would not depress the clutch for the purposes of car control except in a spin.
flemke said:
The relatively slow steering ratio and that long wheelbase mean that, if the car does start to think about going sideways, you must anticipate and intervene fast.
If you haven't already, in case I've missed it in these threads, would a 'quicker' steering rack help with this?Have you considered having a different steering rack commissioned for your car, if that's even possible?
Although I've not owned cars in this league, I've fitted 'quicker' steering racks to several of my cars in the past and have very much appreciated them when the rear end has lost traction.
Martin350 said:
flemke said:
The relatively slow steering ratio and that long wheelbase mean that, if the car does start to think about going sideways, you must anticipate and intervene fast.
If you haven't already, in case I've missed it in these threads, would a 'quicker' steering rack help with this?Have you considered having a different steering rack commissioned for your car, if that's even possible?
Although I've not owned cars in this league, I've fitted 'quicker' steering racks to several of my cars in the past and have very much appreciated them when the rear end has lost traction.
It's not like I have a real need to make the car more responsive to steering inputs. I (hope I) don't drive like an idiot, I'm not getting the car out of shape. Unless I were caught out by oil or gravel on the road, I don't think I would have an urgent need for quicker steering in order to counter-steer my way out of a problem. Fwiw, my years of racing, although now behind me, helped me to improve my sense of what's about to happen. I believe slow-ish steering in a road car is preferable, and is one of the reasons why the original NSX is one of the absolutely best cars ever made.
Sway said:
Is your engine out Flemke?
Iirc, you are still on your first clutch?
Yes and yes. Iirc, you are still on your first clutch?
We had the transaxle out anyhow, and I decided to send the clutch to AP for inspection. It works fine, but I (and McLaren and AP) would like some insight into why I have got 10x the recommended life out of it. Based on measurement of gross depth, it's still only about 1/3 worn.
One thing we have discovered already (before they have inspected it) is that my clutch has a stiffer diaphragm spring than most of the others do. That may have contributed to lower wear. When they unbolt a clutch pack, normally a bunch of carbon dust falls out. When they unbolted mine, there was no dust.
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